Special Episode: Are we thinking about cars the wrong way? from The Future of Mobility Podcast

Paul Comfort: 00:00:03

I'm Paul Comfort, and this is Transit Unplugged.

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And on today's episode, we do another special podcast sharing

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with one of our friends in the network of transit related podcast.

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This one is with Brandon Bart Neck's podcast, the Future of Mobility.

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And his guest is Larry Burns, formerly worked with General Motors, and a

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leader in the autonomous vehicle space.

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I think you'll be very interested in what he has to say about the true

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objective for transportation, and why accessibility trumps speed, and

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why he's so optimistic about the future, and how we can create a safer

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transportation ecosystem, all on this special shared episode with our friend

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Brandon Bartnack's Future of Mobility.

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Thanks for being with us today on this episode of Transit Unplugged.

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And stay tuned for the interview.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:00:52

Today's guest is Larry Burns, joining for a round two discussion.

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Who's Larry?

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He was General Motors Corporate Vice President of Research and Development

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and Planning from 1998 through 2009.

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After that, he went to University of Michigan, Professor of Engineering

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Practice and was the Director of the Program for Sustainable Mobility at

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Columbia University, as well as consultant to the Google Self Driving Cars and

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Waymo and several other major companies.

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Larry is a true legend and innovator and leader in this space of future mobility.

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Wrote the book Autonomy, the quest to build the driverless car and

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how we will reshape our world.

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One of my favorite books, certainly my favorite book in

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this space of future mobility.

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And has done foundational work in electrification and

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autonomy and rethinking what the mobility landscape looks like.

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So, I mentioned at the beginning, round 2 discussion with Larry, he

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joined episode 93, which was one of my favorite episodes of the podcast so far.

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If you haven't listened to it, I strongly recommend you go back there and listen to

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that first and then join this discussion.

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Although this discussion can also be standalone, there isn't

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necessarily too much to build on.

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Bye.

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In that discussion, episode 93, we talked about Larry's background at GM,

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how he thinks about mobility, his work in automation, and Electrification and

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rethinking what he calls automobility and really the way in which we're

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moving goods and people through this ecosystem and the work that's being done.

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Great kind of foundational discussion here.

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We pick up for this discussion with really the top level question, the fundamental

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question of what is the objective?

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Why?

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Why do we care about mobility?

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Why do we care about transportation?

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What are we trying to solve?

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What are we trying to provide as a service to individuals in society?

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And I think that's a fundamental question, and it seems really simple.

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But also the assumptions, many of the underlying assumptions that shaped

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the transportation ecosystem, that shaped mobility, they've changed

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over the last years and decades.

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And so it's critical that we take a step back, re ask yourself, what

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are we actually trying to do here?

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And from there, we can then put the right solutions in place.

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I think an awesome, wide ranging discussion here.

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We talk about accessibility, we talk about the importance of

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getting mass out of the system.

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We talk about the importance of getting the crash out of the system, about

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getting speed out of the system, how to do some of all of these things.

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As always, wonderful discussion here with, with Larry.

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I hope you enjoy it.

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Please enjoy this conversation with Larry Burns.

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Today I'm joined once again by

Larry Burns: 00:03:26

Larry Burns

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for round two discussion here.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:03:28

Larry, thanks for coming back on the podcast.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:03:34

It's my pleasure,

Larry Burns: 00:03:35

Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:03:35

Thanks for having me.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:03:36

Yeah, I'm really excited here.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:03:38

So the, uh, episode 93, we, we, we spoke and, um, one of my favorite episodes I've

Brandon Bartneck: 00:03:43

done on the podcast so far was, uh, yeah, listening back and preparing for this.

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And I, I think great to get your unique insights and expertise from, you know,

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your time at GM and also sense and I don't know, the, the combination

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of optimism and also realism and understanding of the technology and

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where how everything comes together is.

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Really remarkable and I'm looking forward to getting your thoughts

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on a few different, uh, a few different topics here today.

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So, the first kind of, where I want to start is maybe the

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most fundamental question.

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So we're talking future mobility.

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I think where I want to start is what's the point of mobility?

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What's the point of transportation?

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So what, what are we actually, why do we have a transportation ecosystem?

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And why is it so important that we provide mobility and movement of goods and

Larry Burns: 00:04:26

people?

Larry Burns: 00:04:27

Yes, yes.

Larry Burns: 00:04:28

I, I think that hierarchy is really important.

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Transportation lets you move from one place to another.

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It lets you access activities like jobs and school and retail stores,

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entertainment that's taking place at a location other than where you are.

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You jump on a vehicle, you walk, you ride a bike, and you transport yourself.

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Transportation is also important because goods come to you.

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And the transportation of goods in an economy are very, very

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important to support that entire system from raw materials to

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finished products to consumption.

Larry Burns: 00:05:03

So, it really, really is integral to, um, how we live and how our economies prosper.

Larry Burns: 00:05:10

But transportation in and of itself isn't the only way we can access activities.

Larry Burns: 00:05:15

Um, very importantly, what we've seen since the late 70s and early

Larry Burns: 00:05:20

80s is an explosion of communication and information technology that's

Larry Burns: 00:05:25

reshaped how we access activity.

Larry Burns: 00:05:27

So just think about e commerce.

Larry Burns: 00:05:29

Um, uh, today I can buy something almost anywhere in the world

Larry Burns: 00:05:34

by shopping 24 7 off my laptop.

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And have it at my door many times within a day and that's pretty remarkable versus

Larry Burns: 00:05:42

having to get in my car and go to a store.

Larry Burns: 00:05:45

Um, I can remember, I'm old enough to remember when the first

Larry Burns: 00:05:48

automatic teller machines came out.

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Before the ATM, I would get my physical paycheck and get in my car

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and have to get to the bank on Friday at lunchtime because that's the

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only time I could get to the bank.

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Cash my check to get some physical money to spend the next week.

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And, and now my kids don't even get cash.

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And they don't go to a bank.

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And they don't need to make that trip and schedule their lives around that trip.

Larry Burns: 00:06:14

So, what I'm getting at here, Brandon, is something bigger than transportation.

Larry Burns: 00:06:18

I like to call that accessibility.

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Your ability to access the things you do to live your life.

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And those are things like your job, and things like your family, and

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things like, uh, going out to eat, and, uh, going to the movie, going

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to church, those kinds of things.

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And what we're seeing is the explosion in information technology

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and communications technology is allowing us to have enormous growth

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and access without having to travel.

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And not having to make a trip saves you a lot more time

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than making that trip faster.

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So I think it's extremely important for anybody in the transportation business,

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especially personal transportation business, especially the automobile

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business, to really understand where accessibility is headed, and how

Larry Burns: 00:07:09

this next wave of information and communication technology, you know,

Larry Burns: 00:07:13

we've got the 5G, the quantum computing, the mixed reality, holograms, all of

Larry Burns: 00:07:18

that stuff, how could that reshape?

Larry Burns: 00:07:22

The way we live our lives and how could that reshape the economy and

Larry Burns: 00:07:25

what's the role of mobility devices?

Larry Burns: 00:07:28

I'm using those terms specifically.

Larry Burns: 00:07:29

I'm not saying a car, but mobility devices in, in that life that we lead.

Larry Burns: 00:07:35

So I, I think accessibility is a very, very important, um, uh,

Larry Burns: 00:07:40

future under, thing that has to be understood in the future.

Larry Burns: 00:07:44

And

Brandon Bartneck: 00:07:44

it, it feels like it's, it's critical to be

Brandon Bartneck: 00:07:46

able to question assumptions while, while doing this review.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:07:50

So, right, so like my, my job, say on the business development front, 40

Brandon Bartneck: 00:07:54

years ago or 30 years ago or whatever, would look very different, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:07:57

If, if you think about a, submitting a proposal at some point, it was, you know,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:01

type it up, print it, and then get in a car and go drive it and drop it off.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:05

Or even if it's going to a, a fax machine or something, but looking at

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that, at that access or that process of.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:11

I'm getting something physical and going and dropping it off

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and delivering it in person.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:15

Like, I haven't ever thought about getting in a car to go deliver a proposal, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:19

So like, that's a trip that's not even part of my consciousness or part of,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:08:23

part of consideration at this point.

Larry Burns: 00:08:25

Yeah, let me give you another example.

Larry Burns: 00:08:27

My daughter has a meal planning business.

Larry Burns: 00:08:30

That's what she does, a digital meal planning business.

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So we cook her recipes frequently and one day we were going to make.

Larry Burns: 00:08:38

Uh, a dish that required tandoori seasoning, which is not something we

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would normally have in our pantry.

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And we were gonna make it the next day, and so I, I thought, well,

Larry Burns: 00:08:48

I'll go to the store, which is three miles away, and buy my tandoori

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seasoning, assuming they would have it.

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And by the time I would have driven to the store, parked my car, walked

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around in the store, bought the season and came back, it probably would have

Larry Burns: 00:09:01

been about 30 minutes of my time.

Larry Burns: 00:09:03

And, um, plus the gasoline cost and the depreciation cost of my

Larry Burns: 00:09:08

car insurance, my other option was to order it on Amazon Prime.

Larry Burns: 00:09:13

And Amazon Prime had it on my porch.

Larry Burns: 00:09:16

Now this is only a 3 ounce bottle, Brandon, had it on my porch in 16 hours.

Larry Burns: 00:09:22

And it was 5.

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60.

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And if I would have factored in the travel cost, not even my time cost,

Larry Burns: 00:09:30

but the travel cost to go to the store, plus buy it at the store,

Larry Burns: 00:09:34

I would have been looking at 10.

Larry Burns: 00:09:36

So it was an amazingly good deal for me to get the tandoori seasoning

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delivered to my house because I didn't have to make the trip and it

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was a good, very, very good value.

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And as someone might ask, but Larry, asking a 200 pound delivery person

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to bring a three ounce bottle of seasoning and put it on your porch.

Larry Burns: 00:09:54

A delivery van isn't that bad for sustainability?

Larry Burns: 00:09:58

Well, not necessarily because so many of my neighbors are buying

Larry Burns: 00:10:03

things from Amazon as well.

Larry Burns: 00:10:05

Rarely does an Amazon truck come to my house without stopping at

Larry Burns: 00:10:08

a couple of neighbor's houses.

Larry Burns: 00:10:10

So it's this marginal cost of going from the neighbor's house to my house, versus

Larry Burns: 00:10:16

the cost of me driving to the store.

Larry Burns: 00:10:18

I find all of that very, very interesting, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:10:21

And so this blending together of how we consume and how we plan our activities.

Larry Burns: 00:10:27

What's so important about me not having to go to the store is I didn't have

Larry Burns: 00:10:30

to constrain myself around the store hours and spend my time doing that.

Larry Burns: 00:10:35

So this life flexibility, part of the reason we're seeing so much debate around

Larry Burns: 00:10:39

remote work, it's the flexibility that it gives people on their schedules.

Larry Burns: 00:10:46

Um, and it's enormous flexibility, especially, you're not just

Larry Burns: 00:10:50

saving your commute time.

Larry Burns: 00:10:52

But you don't have to be at a certain spot at a certain time necessarily anymore.

Larry Burns: 00:10:57

And that gives you great freedom compared to what we've had in the past.

Larry Burns: 00:11:01

By the way, that's what a car is all about.

Larry Burns: 00:11:03

Why would somebody pay 40, 000 for a new car and leave it

Larry Burns: 00:11:06

parked 95 percent of the time?

Larry Burns: 00:11:09

It's because they want instantaneous access.

Larry Burns: 00:11:12

They want to get in their car and go where they want to go, when they want

Larry Burns: 00:11:15

to go, with whom they travel with.

Larry Burns: 00:11:17

Whenever they want to, they don't want to re solve that transportation

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problem, so they're buying accessibility when they buy a car.

Larry Burns: 00:11:25

Not, not specific trips.

Larry Burns: 00:11:27

Freedom to go where you want to.

Larry Burns: 00:11:29

That's what I think has to be understood to understand the future

Larry Burns: 00:11:32

of mobility and understand the future of transportation, and then therefore

Larry Burns: 00:11:37

the innovation and the business opportunities associated with all of that.

Larry Burns: 00:11:41

One mistake someone could make in business development is to say the

Larry Burns: 00:11:45

future is going to be like the past.

Larry Burns: 00:11:47

And I'm going to extrapolate from the last 10 years forward to the next 10 years and

Larry Burns: 00:11:53

put my business plan together around that.

Larry Burns: 00:11:56

I think right now that's a very, very risky thing for any company to be doing,

Larry Burns: 00:12:01

is that extrapolated volume calculation.

Larry Burns: 00:12:05

And so you think

Brandon Bartneck: 00:12:06

that this, this understanding is fundamental to a lot

Brandon Bartneck: 00:12:10

of different aspects of the future of mobility, understanding that,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:12:13

no, what we're actually providing is not It's not a trip, it's not, what

Brandon Bartneck: 00:12:18

we're providing is accessibility.

Larry Burns: 00:12:21

Yes.

Larry Burns: 00:12:21

It's fundamental, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:12:23

And a synonym for accessibility is freedom.

Larry Burns: 00:12:26

We're providing freedom.

Larry Burns: 00:12:27

We're providing opportunities for everybody to realize their full potential.

Larry Burns: 00:12:32

Just this weekend I read a paper about The state of health of the Americans,

Larry Burns: 00:12:38

and actually Americans are not as healthy as people in many other countries.

Larry Burns: 00:12:43

And it has a lot to do with a group of Americans who do not have

Larry Burns: 00:12:47

good access to health care, or good access to education to learn

Larry Burns: 00:12:52

about how to live a healthier life.

Larry Burns: 00:12:55

So we, we need to let everybody realize their full potential, and

Larry Burns: 00:12:59

to let everyone realize their full potential, they have to have access.

Larry Burns: 00:13:04

To things like knowledge and information and, uh, and

Larry Burns: 00:13:07

opportunities, and that's what this is all about, and transportation,

Larry Burns: 00:13:11

I think, has to fit within that.

Larry Burns: 00:13:13

Let me give you another example.

Larry Burns: 00:13:14

I was hired by Transport Canada to do some work in this area.

Larry Burns: 00:13:19

And so Transport Canada could be looking at, or Canada as a country, could be

Larry Burns: 00:13:23

looking at adding a lane to, um, uh, interstate highway through Toronto.

Larry Burns: 00:13:30

Or they could be looking at providing, um, internet access.

Larry Burns: 00:13:35

Um, in a remote area of Alberta.

Larry Burns: 00:13:39

And you might say, those are two different things.

Larry Burns: 00:13:41

No, they're not.

Larry Burns: 00:13:43

Both of them are accessibility strategies.

Larry Burns: 00:13:45

You've got the group of people in rural Alberta who can gain access to

Larry Burns: 00:13:49

everything the internet brings by having better internet service, or you can save

Larry Burns: 00:13:56

commuters and other travelers through Toronto a few minutes, um, on their trip.

Larry Burns: 00:14:02

A lot of people save a few minutes.

Larry Burns: 00:14:04

Both of those are accessibility, it's, we're journeying, our life is

Larry Burns: 00:14:08

a journey through space and time.

Larry Burns: 00:14:11

Um, and, uh, every one of us has this life trajectory going from place to place,

Larry Burns: 00:14:16

spending time to get to different places.

Larry Burns: 00:14:19

And, uh, therefore, if you're gonna study movement, you've gotta study it

Larry Burns: 00:14:23

in terms of geography and time use.

Larry Burns: 00:14:28

And that's why communication, information, and transportation fit together so nicely.

Larry Burns: 00:14:33

So I would argue, we shouldn't have a Department of Transportation, we shouldn't

Larry Burns: 00:14:38

have a communications agency, we should have a Department of Accessibility.

Larry Burns: 00:14:45

And make the right infrastructure trade offs between better

Larry Burns: 00:14:50

communication infrastructure or better information infrastructure.

Larry Burns: 00:14:54

or better transportation infrastructure with the overriding goal of

Larry Burns: 00:14:59

people having better access to the things that they want to do.

Larry Burns: 00:15:03

Again, that's the freedom.

Larry Burns: 00:15:05

So yeah, I think it's really important to understand the future that way, Brandon.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:09

And I think a related topic or question to one of the core

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:14

themes you hear of people who talk about safe, sustainable, transportation,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:18

whatever verbiage they use, is that the optimal solution is a bunch of really

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:24

big, tightly packed cities where people are Walking and biking to what they need

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:29

and then that somehow, that solves most of these problems because you're not

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:32

getting, you don't need as many vehicles on the road and you're not emitting as

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:36

much and all of these types of things.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:38

How do you think about that solution and also the impact of kind of understanding

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:42

what we're actually trying to solve for accessibility, flexibility here and

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:45

how that shapes what success actually looks like within this landscape?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:15:49

Yeah,

Larry Burns: 00:15:49

yeah.

Larry Burns: 00:15:50

Yeah.

Larry Burns: 00:15:51

First of all, I start with some simple data.

Larry Burns: 00:15:53

When you ask Americans where they live, um.

Larry Burns: 00:15:59

53 percent of Americans say they live in suburbs.

Larry Burns: 00:16:04

24 percent say they live in rural areas.

Larry Burns: 00:16:08

And the rest, which is like 23%, 24 percent say they live in cities.

Larry Burns: 00:16:14

So while the study of transportation, um, seems to always come back to, uh,

Larry Burns: 00:16:23

the study of congestion, which seems to come back to congestion in cities, which

Larry Burns: 00:16:27

seems to come back to uh, light rail or subways or buses as alternatives to cars

Larry Burns: 00:16:34

or the walkable city, um, at least in America, three quarters of Americans have

Larry Burns: 00:16:40

voted with their choices to live somewhere other than a, a dense population center.

Larry Burns: 00:16:48

So back to this theme of freedom, I don't think it's up to me or

Larry Burns: 00:16:51

any politician to tell me where I should live or how I should live.

Larry Burns: 00:16:57

I think I should be able to make my choices.

Larry Burns: 00:16:59

I certainly don't want to harm other people with my choices.

Larry Burns: 00:17:03

We've got to manage these externalities of our choices.

Larry Burns: 00:17:06

So, your question is so important because why have cities existed historically?

Larry Burns: 00:17:12

Well, that's where the knowledge was, that's where the innovation

Larry Burns: 00:17:15

was, that's where the markets existed, but that's where the jobs

Larry Burns: 00:17:18

existed, and the goods existed.

Larry Burns: 00:17:21

But now, in today's world, I don't have to live downtown.

Larry Burns: 00:17:26

To do certain kinds of jobs, I can live in, remotely and do that work.

Larry Burns: 00:17:31

I don't have to live next to my doctor to get telehealth.

Larry Burns: 00:17:35

I don't have to live next to stores to have, um, goods delivered to me.

Larry Burns: 00:17:42

And I can get enormous amounts of information from around the world.

Larry Burns: 00:17:46

So I would contend the fundamental historical drivers of dense

Larry Burns: 00:17:51

urban areas are, are changing and changing dramatically.

Larry Burns: 00:17:55

And we saw that play out when the pandemic hit.

Larry Burns: 00:17:59

The speed at which people who lived in New York City and San Francisco and

Larry Burns: 00:18:04

the tech industry left the downtown area and moved to smaller towns in

Larry Burns: 00:18:11

Colorado, Florida, and elsewhere and haven't come back is remarkable.

Larry Burns: 00:18:17

And that is having a major impact on the economies of those cities.

Larry Burns: 00:18:21

So I would say you have to understand that through accessibility and the

Larry Burns: 00:18:24

pandemic put a lot of these initiatives on steroids and gave us a window into how

Larry Burns: 00:18:30

we, how we might be living differently.

Larry Burns: 00:18:32

Now my daughters are 35 and 32 and they've, they've been around long

Larry Burns: 00:18:37

enough to see the Great Recession.

Larry Burns: 00:18:39

I worked for General Motors when that hit.

Larry Burns: 00:18:41

We went bankrupt.

Larry Burns: 00:18:42

Um, I left.

Larry Burns: 00:18:43

I was an officer at GM.

Larry Burns: 00:18:45

So that's a big family crisis for us.

Larry Burns: 00:18:47

Dad's lost his job.

Larry Burns: 00:18:50

And then they've seen the pandemic, and they've seen companies cut

Larry Burns: 00:18:53

back when the pandemic hit.

Larry Burns: 00:18:55

You know what their conclusion is, Brandon?

Larry Burns: 00:18:57

They want to work for themselves.

Larry Burns: 00:18:59

They're tired of having their destiny controlled by things they can't control.

Larry Burns: 00:19:04

So they've both adjusted their career path to try to get into a world,

Larry Burns: 00:19:08

a gig worker kind of a world where they can control their own destiny.

Larry Burns: 00:19:12

So I think a lot of important stuff is playing out right now in the world and all

Larry Burns: 00:19:17

of that comes back to the auto industry and the kinds of cars and vehicles

Larry Burns: 00:19:22

that we might need to move around in.

Larry Burns: 00:19:25

And I think we really need to be examining this because what's happening, and we

Larry Burns: 00:19:29

talked about this in the earlier podcast.

Larry Burns: 00:19:31

Um, I do believe we're going to get to autonomous driving.

Larry Burns: 00:19:35

It's not a question of whether, it's a question of when.

Larry Burns: 00:19:38

And yes, it's taking longer than a lot of us had hoped or a lot of us had

Larry Burns: 00:19:42

hyped, but when you look at the enabling technologies that are out there to solve

Larry Burns: 00:19:47

the remaining challenges, you look at the continued progress of Waymo, Cruise,

Larry Burns: 00:19:53

Aurora with the trucks, and you look at what's going on in China, we will find the

Larry Burns: 00:19:58

value sweet spots with those technologies.

Larry Burns: 00:20:01

I think that's absolutely going to be central to getting the mass out of the

Larry Burns: 00:20:05

vehicles that we're moving around in.

Larry Burns: 00:20:06

I am really, really concerned in the United States about how

Larry Burns: 00:20:11

heavy vehicles have become and how much horsepower they have.

Larry Burns: 00:20:16

Just a couple facts quickly.

Larry Burns: 00:20:17

Since 1982 to 2022, 40 year period, if you look at the new cars built

Larry Burns: 00:20:25

and sold in 82, and compare that to the new cars built and sold in 2022.

Larry Burns: 00:20:32

They're 40 percent heavier in 2022, and the horsepower is 175 percent

Larry Burns: 00:20:40

higher, and speeds are about 55 percent higher, the rate of acceleration.

Larry Burns: 00:20:47

Um, and, and, um, and you say to yourself, let's see, mass is

Larry Burns: 00:20:53

related to kinetic energy, which is related to severity of crash.

Larry Burns: 00:20:57

If you hit someone and if you hit a pedestrian in a vehicle 40 pounds

Larry Burns: 00:21:01

heavier, Going faster than I had historically, the chances of the

Larry Burns: 00:21:06

pedestrian surviving go down dramatically.

Larry Burns: 00:21:09

Or a bicyclist, or a scooter rider.

Larry Burns: 00:21:12

And so, now you look at what we're doing with electric vehicles in the

Larry Burns: 00:21:15

United States, Cadillac just started talking about the Escalade IQ.

Larry Burns: 00:21:21

Brandon, it's a foot longer than the Escalade, it's four inches wider than the

Larry Burns: 00:21:25

Escalade, and a typical gasoline based Escalade weighs about 6, 000 pounds,

Larry Burns: 00:21:30

and this vehicle weighs 8, 500 pounds.

Larry Burns: 00:21:34

It has a 200 kWh battery, which weighs between 000 pounds, they haven't made

Larry Burns: 00:21:41

that public, but either number, that's the weight of the Detroit Lions offense.

Larry Burns: 00:21:47

Imagine going to the store to buy some milk and an Escalade IQ, and

Larry Burns: 00:21:54

knowing that you're taking the entire starting offense of the Detroit

Larry Burns: 00:21:57

Lions with you and your vehicle.

Larry Burns: 00:21:59

And then you say, okay, we're going to put a 7, 500 incentive

Larry Burns: 00:22:04

on that vehicle to get somebody to buy it because it's sustainable.

Larry Burns: 00:22:10

Yes, it's electric.

Larry Burns: 00:22:11

I get that.

Larry Burns: 00:22:13

But we really, really need to think hard about it.

Larry Burns: 00:22:16

So why is this dovetail back to accessibility?

Larry Burns: 00:22:20

Well, I think not only are we going to change the kinds of trips

Larry Burns: 00:22:24

we make in the future, I think we've got to make those trips.

Larry Burns: 00:22:28

and vehicles that are much better tailored with our physical mass.

Larry Burns: 00:22:34

So when I go from my home to my country club, and I've got a Chevy Traverse,

Larry Burns: 00:22:39

that's a 4, 200 pound vehicle, why am I not taking a 1, 500 pound vehicle?

Larry Burns: 00:22:45

Or maybe a 800 pound motorcycle?

Larry Burns: 00:22:47

Safety!

Larry Burns: 00:22:49

We gotta get the crash out of the system, get the mass out of the system,

Larry Burns: 00:22:54

and get the vehicles much more aligned.

Larry Burns: 00:22:58

With our body mass, recognizing speed isn't the be all, the

Larry Burns: 00:23:03

end all, it's flexibility.

Larry Burns: 00:23:05

Flexibility gives you much more accessibility increase than

Larry Burns: 00:23:09

a marginal increase in speed.

Larry Burns: 00:23:11

So this is all this stuff spinning around in my head right now, but

Larry Burns: 00:23:14

that's why accessibility, electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles,

Larry Burns: 00:23:18

mass, speed, horsepower, all those things are interrelated.

Larry Burns: 00:23:22

And I think for your age, Brandon, and your kids, um,

Larry Burns: 00:23:26

this is a really pivotal moment.

Larry Burns: 00:23:28

Um, to, to get this right.

Larry Burns: 00:23:30

We've got to get this right.

Larry Burns: 00:23:32

And

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:32

how, yeah, and how do we do that, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:34

So like the, what you mentioned on the surface, right, of, or you look at the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:38

Hummer, there's other, I don't want to just pick on GM, because it's not

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:41

just GM, because there's, there's other heavy vehicles on the road that are

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:45

faster than they need to be, and Oh, the

Larry Burns: 00:23:47

Lightning, yeah, the Ford F 150 Lightning's a heavy

Larry Burns: 00:23:50

vehicle, yeah, yeah, you name it, you can find them all, yeah.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:54

So, but, but, so the thing though is, you can see

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:56

how they come into existence, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:23:58

So, There's people who are asking for this, and if you look at the users,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:02

they also want to be safe on the road, they want to be able to tow certain,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:06

they want to, on the odd chance that they take the whole family for us up

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:11

north here, right, or wherever on a road trip, they have the space for that, they

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:17

can afford whatever price tags put on it, they don't really care about the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:19

weight because they don't feel it, they like, they like having So, um, yeah.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:22

A heavy, like a fast vehicle.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:24

So like you can see how people are making purchase decisions.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:27

You can see how that demand is driving R& D and development

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:32

decisions from the automakers.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:34

It feels like this is not a system that's going to reach an optimal

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:38

conclusion without some type of external involvement here.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:24:41

Like, what's,

Larry Burns: 00:24:42

what's the fix?

Larry Burns: 00:24:43

I think, um, number one, when we buy a car, we tend to buy

Larry Burns: 00:24:48

a car for the occasional use.

Larry Burns: 00:24:52

So the trip up north with the family and the dogs is a trip that maybe my wife

Larry Burns: 00:24:57

and I might make eight times a year.

Larry Burns: 00:25:00

But every day we're using our vehicles to move around locally and we're using a

Larry Burns: 00:25:05

vehicle designed and engineered for that occasional trip to make the everyday trip.

Larry Burns: 00:25:12

Somehow we've got to flip that around.

Larry Burns: 00:25:14

Somehow my everyday trips really need to be tailored.

Larry Burns: 00:25:19

to the fact that most of my everyday trips are made by myself,

Larry Burns: 00:25:23

occasionally with one other person.

Larry Burns: 00:25:25

In fact, 80 percent of the trips in the U.

Larry Burns: 00:25:27

S.

Larry Burns: 00:25:27

are one or two people.

Larry Burns: 00:25:28

But our cars are designed for four and six people.

Larry Burns: 00:25:32

And the trips I make typically every day, I'm not going over 45 miles an hour.

Larry Burns: 00:25:37

At least the speed limit on those roads don't exceed 45.

Larry Burns: 00:25:41

But yet, um, most of the vehicles we have can go 100, 120.

Larry Burns: 00:25:47

So if we can somehow flip this around and incentivize me to make

Larry Burns: 00:25:51

my everyday trips in a vehicle much more aligned with what's sustainable.

Larry Burns: 00:25:57

And it has to be safe, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:25:59

That's the number one requirement.

Larry Burns: 00:26:00

The number two requirement is it has to be spontaneous and responsive.

Larry Burns: 00:26:05

It has to be convenient.

Larry Burns: 00:26:07

And, um, then it has to give me a compelling experience.

Larry Burns: 00:26:10

So when I talk small vehicles, I'm not talking, you know, a cheap car.

Larry Burns: 00:26:16

Boring vehicle.

Larry Burns: 00:26:18

I think I could be in an exquisite, luxurious experience sitting by

Larry Burns: 00:26:22

myself in a mobility machine going from my home to my country club,

Larry Burns: 00:26:27

arriving as the best dressed rider in a vehicle that makes a statement,

Larry Burns: 00:26:33

but it happens to be 1, 500 pounds rather than four, five, 6, 000 pounds.

Larry Burns: 00:26:40

So somehow I think, I think it's a couple of things.

Larry Burns: 00:26:43

Number one, we have to get a A feedback system where lower mass begets lower mass.

Larry Burns: 00:26:49

The smaller the vehicles, the safer the system, the safer the

Larry Burns: 00:26:53

system, the more willing people are to ride in smaller vehicles.

Larry Burns: 00:26:57

Secondly, I think we have to have the ability to get you that occasional

Larry Burns: 00:27:02

use vehicle when you need it.

Larry Burns: 00:27:05

Not riding in it all the time, but it gets to you conveniently.

Larry Burns: 00:27:12

Think car rental.

Larry Burns: 00:27:13

But think, the car shows up at your door when you're ready to

Larry Burns: 00:27:17

make your trip up north and it shows up at your door autonomously.

Larry Burns: 00:27:22

So you're not getting the labor costs of having to get that car to you.

Larry Burns: 00:27:26

So somehow if we can flip this around, and I'm, I'm, I don't mean to be pie

Larry Burns: 00:27:30

in the sky here, this is not easy.

Larry Burns: 00:27:32

And I'm somewhat idealistic, I recognize this.

Larry Burns: 00:27:35

But if you're looking for solutions, we've got to flip this around.

Larry Burns: 00:27:38

Rather than me buying a vehicle that can do everything.

Larry Burns: 00:27:43

And then compromising the one person, low speed, short trip by taking that

Larry Burns: 00:27:49

vehicle that does everything, flip it around, have me own or lease the

Larry Burns: 00:27:54

vehicle that does optimally most of the trips I make, and then find a way to

Larry Burns: 00:28:00

get an occasional use vehicle to me.

Larry Burns: 00:28:02

And I think those businesses can work.

Larry Burns: 00:28:04

Rental car companies work.

Larry Burns: 00:28:05

Heck, if you go To Denver in the winter because you want to take a

Larry Burns: 00:28:09

ski trip, they'll be, oh, there's a lot of four wheel drive cars that

Larry Burns: 00:28:12

you rent in Denver because that's when you need a four wheel drive car.

Larry Burns: 00:28:16

Somehow the rental car companies make that business work.

Larry Burns: 00:28:19

So I just think there's business models and there's ways to rethink this.

Larry Burns: 00:28:24

Autonomous vehicles are very, very important, not just for me riding

Larry Burns: 00:28:27

around without having to drive, but very important if we're going to have

Larry Burns: 00:28:30

shared fleets like that, getting the empty vehicle to me so I can ride in it.

Larry Burns: 00:28:35

And not having to have a labor cost to do that is an exciting opportunity.

Larry Burns: 00:28:39

I think there's a solution.

Larry Burns: 00:28:41

Um, again, I don't want to sound naive that it's going to happen immediately,

Larry Burns: 00:28:45

but your generation better get on with thinking about this because I don't

Larry Burns: 00:28:49

think you want to wake up 40 years from now like I have woken up 1982 to 2022.

Larry Burns: 00:28:57

All of this effort by regulators, everybody, in that

Larry Burns: 00:29:00

entire period from 1982 on.

Larry Burns: 00:29:03

Keep in mind, Brandon, the first safety regulations, the first fuel

Larry Burns: 00:29:06

economy regulations, the first emission regulations were in the 1970s.

Larry Burns: 00:29:10

So, the United States leaders acknowledged we had issues.

Larry Burns: 00:29:15

And the measure of progress on the automotive fleet in the United States

Larry Burns: 00:29:19

is that in that time period since we acknowledged we had an issue,

Larry Burns: 00:29:23

cars have gotten 40 percent heavier and 175 percent more powerful.

Larry Burns: 00:29:28

How can that be part of the answer, given the role that mass plays with respect

Larry Burns: 00:29:33

to energy consumption, with respect to safety, and with respect to material

Larry Burns: 00:29:38

consumption when you build the car?

Larry Burns: 00:29:40

So that 200 kWh battery in that Escalade IQ has lithium in it.

Larry Burns: 00:29:48

And everybody's concerned about lithium mines.

Larry Burns: 00:29:51

So we're gonna mine lithium, put it in a 200 kWh battery.

Larry Burns: 00:29:57

That's going to sit idle 95 percent of the time and we're worried about

Larry Burns: 00:30:03

geopolitical and environmental aspects of lithium mines.

Larry Burns: 00:30:08

We've got to really step back, Grant, and I think rethink the

Larry Burns: 00:30:12

future through an accessibility lens.

Larry Burns: 00:30:15

Communication, information, and transportation.

Larry Burns: 00:30:18

How do I get access without having to move because that's much more

Larry Burns: 00:30:23

energy efficient than Moving faster.

Larry Burns: 00:30:26

And then when I do have to move, how do I do that access tailored to

Larry Burns: 00:30:32

the real requirements of my trip?

Larry Burns: 00:30:35

A one person trip, shouldn't that be in a one or two person vehicle rather

Larry Burns: 00:30:38

than a four or six person vehicle?

Larry Burns: 00:30:41

Um, all of that kind of thought process.

Larry Burns: 00:30:43

So I think, I think it can be thought through, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:30:46

But I'm telling you, if we just keep doing business as usual here, and we

Larry Burns: 00:30:49

extrapolate the past forward, Your generation is going to look back

Larry Burns: 00:30:54

and be as sad about the results as I do when I look back on my cohort

Larry Burns: 00:30:59

group and where we've led the world.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:01

Yeah, and how, I don't know, so we talked to, we've touched

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:05

on it here, we've talked a bit on the last discussion about, you know, the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:09

importance of autonomy and you mentioned get the crash out of the system allows

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:12

you to get the mass out of the system.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:13

You have this positive loop that will allow us to over time.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:17

If we, when, when we do have more autonomous vehicles on the road in safer

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:21

conditions, that, that will bode very well, um, but in the, in the meantime, or

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:26

as we continue to develop that technology and prove it out, um, I guess back to,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:32

back to this question of like, what do we, who are the main people who can actually

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:36

make an impact on here and, and how?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:37

And I mentioned, I mean, the personal user, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:40

Like, I don't know, is it worth, do I take the, uh, And MARTA is maybe a

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:45

strong word, but is it worth it that I go and buy a light vehicle just because

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:50

that's, that's the right thing to do?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:51

And maybe it's slightly riskier for me driving my, my son around?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:54

Is it right for, I mean, the OEMs will say, hey, we had that, we

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:57

had those light luxury vehicles.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:31:59

They weren't, they either weren't selling or they just weren't making as much

Brandon Bartneck: 00:32:02

on a per margin, per vehicle margin basis from a profitability perspective.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:32:06

So they lean into these big vehicles and like there's other actors who.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:32:10

I don't know, people have good excuses for why we are where we are.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:32:14

Like, who is, yeah, who owns the burden and should take the first

Brandon Bartneck: 00:32:18

step here of actually let's, let's get us towards a safer,

Larry Burns: 00:32:21

better system?

Larry Burns: 00:32:22

That's a marvelous question.

Larry Burns: 00:32:23

I happen to believe safety's gotta be the overriding priority.

Larry Burns: 00:32:28

And so would I want you to just buy a light vehicle and perhaps put you and your

Larry Burns: 00:32:34

family at risk because you're trying to do the right thing from an energy standpoint?

Larry Burns: 00:32:40

I would be concerned about that, Brandon, but I'm also concerned

Larry Burns: 00:32:43

about the safety of pedestrians.

Larry Burns: 00:32:45

My goodness, there's a tragedy in Detroit just this last week where

Larry Burns: 00:32:49

the CEO of Eastern Market and his wife, as pedestrians, were hit by

Larry Burns: 00:32:53

a car in downtown Detroit and she died and he was severely injured.

Larry Burns: 00:32:58

I don't know the specifics around that crash, but that's an unfair Um, situation,

Larry Burns: 00:33:06

the pedestrian having to be put up against a vehicle moving at a speed and

Larry Burns: 00:33:10

a mass like it is, so I just, I just feel like, um, we first could do, you know,

Larry Burns: 00:33:17

digital twins of the system that we're envisioning and really begin to better

Larry Burns: 00:33:21

understand This, uh, lower mass because lower mass dynamic and where it could end.

Larry Burns: 00:33:28

I, I believe in the field of dreams.

Larry Burns: 00:33:30

If I build it, they will come.

Larry Burns: 00:33:31

So I think we've got to show it in some places and in some communities

Larry Burns: 00:33:35

where people indeed can live with a much lighter mass mix of vehicles.

Larry Burns: 00:33:41

They can indeed get the occasional used vehicle.

Larry Burns: 00:33:45

But, but I, I do think regulating fuel economy has not gotten the job done.

Larry Burns: 00:33:51

Um, I, I shared cars in general statistics versus 1982.

Larry Burns: 00:33:56

If you look at pickup trucks specifically, pickup trucks, 1982

Larry Burns: 00:34:01

new pickup trucks versus 2022 new pickup trucks, they're 50 percent

Larry Burns: 00:34:06

heavier, 210 percent more powerful.

Larry Burns: 00:34:11

Zero to 60 is 60 percent faster, and you know what?

Larry Burns: 00:34:17

There's been no improvement in the fuel economy of those pickup trucks.

Larry Burns: 00:34:21

For 40 years.

Larry Burns: 00:34:23

So, scratch our head and say, that's not, that hasn't worked.

Larry Burns: 00:34:28

So maybe we have to start thinking about regulating mass.

Larry Burns: 00:34:32

Maybe we could do that in a proactive way, where I incentivize people who

Larry Burns: 00:34:38

buy lower mass vehicles, or And a, um, uh, uh, uh, on the other side,

Larry Burns: 00:34:44

if you get a, if you want to have a larger, heavier vehicle, you have

Larry Burns: 00:34:48

to pay more for your license plate.

Larry Burns: 00:34:50

And that, that's done in Europe, by the way.

Larry Burns: 00:34:52

That's not a new idea.

Larry Burns: 00:34:54

But just public policy in general says there's an externality with mass.

Larry Burns: 00:34:58

That my decision to drive a much heavier vehicle has an impact on you.

Larry Burns: 00:35:04

Because you're mixing in a fleet of vehicles with my heavier vehicle.

Larry Burns: 00:35:08

How does that compare to secondhand smoking?

Larry Burns: 00:35:10

When the world realized, or the United States world realized that if I

Larry Burns: 00:35:14

smoked, I'm impacting my office mate, and therefore, I shouldn't be able

Larry Burns: 00:35:19

to smoke in front of other people, that's a big deal, and the rate of

Larry Burns: 00:35:25

smoking is down dramatically, so maybe there's some lessons learned here.

Larry Burns: 00:35:29

It's not going to happen overnight.

Larry Burns: 00:35:31

But the first step is, I think, acknowledging that what's been done in the

Larry Burns: 00:35:35

last 40 years hasn't gotten the job done.

Larry Burns: 00:35:38

The second step is realizing that if we keep making these vehicles

Larry Burns: 00:35:41

bigger with EVs, we're not on a path to sustainability the way the

Larry Burns: 00:35:45

environmentalists think we might be.

Larry Burns: 00:35:48

And therefore, we've got to do something different, and maybe the

Larry Burns: 00:35:52

two real leverageable variables in this system are mass and speed.

Larry Burns: 00:35:58

And I can demonstrate, Brandon, in detail with graphics and other things

Larry Burns: 00:36:03

how speed is way overplayed as an important thing in our daily lives.

Larry Burns: 00:36:09

What I'm saying is, if I can improve your speed twice as fast in your daily

Larry Burns: 00:36:16

life, that doesn't come close to the accessibility enhancement I give you just

Larry Burns: 00:36:22

by giving you flexible working hours.

Larry Burns: 00:36:26

Because flexible working hours lets you be at more places at more times,

Larry Burns: 00:36:29

lets you manage your schedule better.

Larry Burns: 00:36:32

So if your metric is accessibility, uh, speed matters, being able to go faster

Larry Burns: 00:36:40

than I walk matter, but it certainly doesn't matter 70 miles per hour on I 96

Larry Burns: 00:36:48

versus 85, or 90, and the flow of traffic.

Larry Burns: 00:36:53

So I think enforcing speed limits is going to be important.

Larry Burns: 00:36:58

I think we've got to get the masks on, we've got to enforce speed limits.

Larry Burns: 00:37:01

And then I think we have to get incentives for less mass begets

Larry Burns: 00:37:04

less mass and ultimately get to that by showing what's possible.

Larry Burns: 00:37:09

So I don't give up on that.

Larry Burns: 00:37:11

I'm hopeful that we can find a way to solve it.

Larry Burns: 00:37:14

And the first step is to recognize we've got a problem here.

Larry Burns: 00:37:17

But we've got an opportunity.

Larry Burns: 00:37:19

We have a huge opportunity with accessibility.

Larry Burns: 00:37:22

Because if we can get everybody these things and laptops and

Larry Burns: 00:37:28

really good access to telehealth.

Larry Burns: 00:37:31

And all of that stuff.

Larry Burns: 00:37:33

I mean, you take something like diabetes, does a person have to physically go to

Larry Burns: 00:37:37

the doctor to have their diabetes treated?

Larry Burns: 00:37:39

Or can you do that with, with, uh, sensors through your, your, your phones

Larry Burns: 00:37:44

and other things and get the medicine there through an e commerce type system?

Larry Burns: 00:37:49

And, and really move the needle on health because of accessibility,

Larry Burns: 00:37:53

which is information communication.

Larry Burns: 00:37:55

Is this making sense, Brandon?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:37:57

Yeah, it is, and I guess one quick side note on the speed

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:00

question, or the speed note, actually, one of the, when I did a deep dive a

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:05

few episodes ago with Waymo, Francesca Favaro on safety, I asked her what was

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:11

the biggest surprise for her as she got into the data, and she said, yeah, the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:15

impact and the crazy speed involved in such a high percentage of the crashes

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:20

and incidents that they were viewing, it's, yeah, it's potentially astounding.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:24

I mean, I can't, how big How much speeding actually contributes to

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:28

certainly the safety aspect and even the sustainability aspect, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:31

Vehicles moving faster, like it's, it's nonlinear the amount of additional

Brandon Bartneck: 00:38:35

energy that they utilize as well.

Larry Burns: 00:38:38

If you look at the history of transportation planning and

Larry Burns: 00:38:41

transportation engineering, a lot of the.

Larry Burns: 00:38:43

Tools came to be when the interstate system was being planned in the U.

Larry Burns: 00:38:47

S.

Larry Burns: 00:38:48

in the 50s and 60s.

Larry Burns: 00:38:50

And so you had to do a cost benefit analysis on adding capacity to a lane

Larry Burns: 00:38:54

in the freeway, to the freeway system.

Larry Burns: 00:38:57

And so they would say, well, by having more capacity, we can save travel time.

Larry Burns: 00:39:01

So we would save five minutes for a lot of people.

Larry Burns: 00:39:06

And so you take a lot of people times five minutes times wage

Larry Burns: 00:39:09

rate, and that's a lot of benefit.

Larry Burns: 00:39:11

The real question is, what are those people doing with that 5 minutes?

Larry Burns: 00:39:16

Versus really having the flexibility of maybe, uh, getting to work anytime

Larry Burns: 00:39:22

between 7 in the morning or 9 in the morning, leaving anytime between 4 and

Larry Burns: 00:39:26

6, and realizing how that enables you to be a coach for your kids baseball

Larry Burns: 00:39:31

team, and have access to all kinds of experiences in your life because

Larry Burns: 00:39:36

you have more control over your time.

Larry Burns: 00:39:38

And that's much more valuable than that marginal increase in speed.

Larry Burns: 00:39:43

And I always wonder when, when people do blow by me on the expressway, I'm

Larry Burns: 00:39:47

saying where are they going, and why do they have to get there, and why

Larry Burns: 00:39:52

are they putting me at risk to be able to go 90 miles an hour on the freeway

Larry Burns: 00:39:57

rather than 70, and what are they going to do with their extra 10 minutes

Larry Burns: 00:40:01

when they get to their destination?

Larry Burns: 00:40:03

So I, I just think we have to have a, we really need to step back and

Larry Burns: 00:40:07

think about what's going on here and not say, Something as simple as

Larry Burns: 00:40:12

we just have to get everybody in an electric vehicle and we're all set.

Larry Burns: 00:40:16

That's not the answer to sustainability, Brandon, for your generation.

Larry Burns: 00:40:21

Not that electric vehicles are bad, I really believe in them, but it's a much

Larry Burns: 00:40:27

more complex, much bigger set of questions than we just gotta get everybody in

Larry Burns: 00:40:31

an electric vehicle and we're all set.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:33

Yeah, and I think this point of realizing the under arching

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:37

objective and what we're actually trying to do which is enrich lives

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:40

with Giving the ability for people to move from place to place and to have

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:44

goods moved from, from place to place is so important and something that I've

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:48

struggled with kind of anecdotally, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:50

So like, I chose to live, I choose, continue to choose to

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:53

live in a suburb because I, this is for, for various reasons.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:40:57

I have now a commute that's an hour one way on an expressway, which I, on the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:03

surface, would, would never want to do.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:05

But the fact that I'm making that drive on average twice a week and I do it.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:10

When it makes sense, and timing's very flexible, and I'm remote on a day like

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:14

this, and I'm able to be there with my son at breakfast to help out with,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:19

like, there's so much more factors that, like, if I take a step back and look at,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:24

like, the super rational mind is, no, I should live right next to my work, and I

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:27

should optimize, and I should just make all my decisions around that, or, like,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:30

I should live in a city center for all the reasons so that I can walk and bike

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:33

to places, but, like, that's not what I've valued in my life so far, and I

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:36

don't think it's because I'm Thank you.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:38

Foolish, or that I, I mean, I'm probably foolish for other reasons, but I don't

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:42

think it's because of poor judgment.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:43

It's just I'm optimizing for something different than

Brandon Bartneck: 00:41:45

what has been the narrative.

Larry Burns: 00:41:47

Absolutely.

Larry Burns: 00:41:50

I say that's just let everybody realize their full potential.

Larry Burns: 00:41:54

Let everybody have the freedom to live the way that they want.

Larry Burns: 00:41:57

By the way, the person that decides they want to live in a downtown

Larry Burns: 00:42:00

area Also should have the peace of mind that if they're walking

Larry Burns: 00:42:03

downtown, they're going to be safe.

Larry Burns: 00:42:07

They're not going to be compromised by an escalade limousine rushing down an

Larry Burns: 00:42:14

avenue to try to beat a light because they think they've got a client in the

Larry Burns: 00:42:19

back seat that thinks their time is really more precious than the safety

Larry Burns: 00:42:23

of the pedestrians on those streets.

Larry Burns: 00:42:26

And that doesn't mean you can't have escalades as limousines.

Larry Burns: 00:42:30

Yes, you can.

Larry Burns: 00:42:31

But my thesis would be, you have to pay for the externality of your mass

Larry Burns: 00:42:35

and power if you want to have one because you are imposing a risk on other

Larry Burns: 00:42:41

people, and I don't think that's fair.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:42:44

Yeah, and I think this is a tough question, but it goes

Brandon Bartneck: 00:42:46

along with, so, getting towards this, this future, safer, accessible, kind

Brandon Bartneck: 00:42:53

of transportation ecosystem or mobility ecosystem or, Just even out beyond

Brandon Bartneck: 00:42:59

that, like in enriching lives, we mentioned kind of the externalities and

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:02

the role potentially of public policy.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:04

You also, one of the themes here has been, there are business opportunities

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:07

opening in the cracks too, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:09

Of like, as we make this understanding that, as we realize that, no it's not.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:14

It's not that people want to move from place to place in

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:16

an incrementally faster way.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:18

It's that they want flexibility and they want accessibility.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:20

That's how something like Amazon, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:22

That whole business was built around solving this.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:24

Do you have any thoughts on, either examples of, or thoughts of,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:27

kind of, um, theoretically, like, where there are additional cracks,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:43:31

where there are real business opportunities and opportunities to make

Larry Burns: 00:43:34

an impact?

Larry Burns: 00:43:34

Well, I'm going to kick myself on this one a bit, because my dissertation, I

Larry Burns: 00:43:38

went to University of California, Berkeley for my PhD, and I wrote my dissertation.

Larry Burns: 00:43:43

It was a book called the um, Transportation, Temporal and

Larry Burns: 00:43:47

Spatial Components of Accessibility.

Larry Burns: 00:43:49

It's a real mouthful, but I was into this stuff in the middle 70s, 1970s,

Larry Burns: 00:43:54

and I, and I wrote the book, and the conclusion in the book was really

Larry Burns: 00:43:58

that this, this time dimension and flexibility was more important than speed.

Larry Burns: 00:44:02

That came through crystal clear.

Larry Burns: 00:44:04

Also what came through crystal clear at that time was it was

Larry Burns: 00:44:07

going to be really tough for bus systems to compete with cars.

Larry Burns: 00:44:10

If the metric is accessibility, if you've got a car parked outside and you

Larry Burns: 00:44:14

can spontaneously go where you want to, when you want to, and not be relying

Larry Burns: 00:44:20

on routes and schedules, you just really, really have a better solution.

Larry Burns: 00:44:24

So I have that on my mind, and then I begin to watch the, looking

Larry Burns: 00:44:28

back, because I did not work on this subject after I graduated.

Larry Burns: 00:44:31

I went to work at General Motors and learned the business of

Larry Burns: 00:44:34

designing, engineering, and manufacturing cars, and I loved it.

Larry Burns: 00:44:37

It was a great career.

Larry Burns: 00:44:39

And it wasn't until 1998, when I became head of R& D at GM, that Rick

Larry Burns: 00:44:44

Wagner, who was my boss at the time, said, Larry, if we were inventing

Larry Burns: 00:44:48

the car today rather than 100 years ago, what would we do different?

Larry Burns: 00:44:52

And he said, I need you to think about that for us.

Larry Burns: 00:44:56

That liberated me to go back and begin to think about accessibility, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:45:00

And what I realized is all the things that have come along in

Larry Burns: 00:45:05

information and communication.

Larry Burns: 00:45:08

So the laptop computer, the mobile phone.

Larry Burns: 00:45:11

Um, streaming, um, virtual reality, augmented reality, um, and uh, e commerce.

Larry Burns: 00:45:21

All of those things happened, and I said, well, what happened in the transportation

Larry Burns: 00:45:26

industry to enhance accessibility?

Larry Burns: 00:45:29

We were more obsessed with cup holders.

Larry Burns: 00:45:31

And the last big accessibility innovation in the transportation system in the U.

Larry Burns: 00:45:37

S.

Larry Burns: 00:45:38

was the interstate system in the 50s.

Larry Burns: 00:45:40

So what I'm saying here is focus on time flexibility as

Larry Burns: 00:45:46

a business and an innovator.

Larry Burns: 00:45:48

Anything you can do that helps people use their time more efficiently, and helps

Larry Burns: 00:45:54

them have better experiences in life around that, I think you have winning

Larry Burns: 00:45:58

business opportunities because Apple, Amazon, um, you know, uh, Microsoft,

Larry Burns: 00:46:07

uh, these extremely valuable companies.

Larry Burns: 00:46:10

They really innovated in accessibility and the communication and

Larry Burns: 00:46:15

information technology world, but it really came back to time use.

Larry Burns: 00:46:19

Even Google's foundation, Alphabet's foundation, was search.

Larry Burns: 00:46:24

And when I wrote my dissertation, I had to go to a physical library

Larry Burns: 00:46:28

to get a physical journal article and check it out and reference it.

Larry Burns: 00:46:34

They came up with this search capability, which has turned into this enormous

Larry Burns: 00:46:38

capability of access to information, with great business models behind it.

Larry Burns: 00:46:43

So I think we're just getting started, to be honest.

Larry Burns: 00:46:46

Even though the journey from 1980 to today on accessibility with the communication

Larry Burns: 00:46:52

and information innovation has been phenomenal, and it's reshaped how we

Larry Burns: 00:46:56

live, I think it's just getting started.

Larry Burns: 00:46:58

And the technology that's going to now combine in the next 10

Larry Burns: 00:47:01

years, Again, quantum computing is an example, and all of that.

Larry Burns: 00:47:07

I think there's going to be a huge set of new business opportunities,

Larry Burns: 00:47:11

but I don't think it's going to be rooted in physically moving me.

Larry Burns: 00:47:16

I think we're going to be physically moving, uh, electrons and atoms,

Larry Burns: 00:47:22

and, and, um, bits and digits and all of that stuff, information,

Larry Burns: 00:47:27

and throw 3D printing into the mix.

Larry Burns: 00:47:31

And you begin to think about the labor implications of that.

Larry Burns: 00:47:33

I'm on the board of a real estate developer in Florida.

Larry Burns: 00:47:36

We're doing a new town called Babcock Ranch.

Larry Burns: 00:47:38

We just hosted an innovation workshop for home building.

Larry Burns: 00:47:43

My gosh, Brandon, the progress that innovators are making with

Larry Burns: 00:47:47

3D printed homes is phenomenal.

Larry Burns: 00:47:50

And you think about the labor implications of 3D printing a wall.

Larry Burns: 00:47:55

With the exterior surface finished with the 3D printer, the interior surface

Larry Burns: 00:47:59

is finished with the 3D printer.

Larry Burns: 00:48:01

There's not drywall.

Larry Burns: 00:48:03

The conduits for the HVAC and the plumbing and the wiring are all

Larry Burns: 00:48:07

integrated into those wall systems and they snap together like Lego blocks.

Larry Burns: 00:48:12

So, again, it's productivity driven, it's time use driven, and that's

Larry Burns: 00:48:18

where the business opportunities really are in all of this.

Larry Burns: 00:48:22

And you know what's good about it?

Larry Burns: 00:48:23

I think it's more sustainable.

Larry Burns: 00:48:25

Much more sustainable.

Larry Burns: 00:48:28

So, um, there's a winning combination out there that sustainability is good

Larry Burns: 00:48:34

business if you use design innovation to deliver new, exciting experiences

Larry Burns: 00:48:39

to people, but really, really gets the waste out of the system.

Larry Burns: 00:48:43

Because a lot of that waste is over processing and extra material

Larry Burns: 00:48:48

and extra energy and extra mass.

Larry Burns: 00:48:51

So if I was your age, I would be focused on what I call design innovation.

Larry Burns: 00:48:56

Focused on the entire experience of people living their lives.

Larry Burns: 00:49:00

How do we make them better?

Larry Burns: 00:49:02

And then, um, the technology innovation that lets you have even greater

Larry Burns: 00:49:06

experiences in your design system.

Larry Burns: 00:49:08

And then I would throw in some operational excellence because you

Larry Burns: 00:49:11

gotta deliver the good experiences.

Larry Burns: 00:49:13

Huge opportunities out there.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:16

Yeah, cool.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:16

And while you're talking there, I mean, so I just recorded it just, just before

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:20

this, I'll probably come out a couple of weeks after this, this episode.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:23

But with, uh, Corey Clothier talking about AV or autonomous vehicle

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:26

applications and this, this question of like, where, so what you're mentioning

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:30

of autonomous vehicles and what we're talking about here is like private use

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:33

vehicles is that's the Holy grail that we're working towards, but even, even

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:38

in the mid midterm, there are autonomy.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:41

Capabilities.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:42

So we talked about like applications of on a mine moving, you know, a 90

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:46

mile stretch and not needing a driver or like on a huge, on a huge campus,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:50

the ability to send a vehicle to go pick something up for you and come back

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:54

rather than you needing to go do that.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:49:56

Like, it feels like even in the here and now today, there are really cool

Brandon Bartneck: 00:50:00

technologies that exist of where you can apply Things like an autonomous vehicle

Brandon Bartneck: 00:50:05

in a closed setting and yeah, you can save that trip, save that time for the human.

Larry Burns: 00:50:10

Absolutely, we're gonna find those use cases and some

Larry Burns: 00:50:13

people call that geofencing, but they're getting darn close, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:50:19

When Mary Barra introduces ultra cruise and she says it can handle 95 percent of

Larry Burns: 00:50:23

driving scenarios, that's pretty profound.

Larry Burns: 00:50:26

Now, that's not 95 percent of miles.

Larry Burns: 00:50:29

A driving scenario may be, uh, weather, uh, traffic conditions,

Larry Burns: 00:50:35

um, those kinds of things.

Larry Burns: 00:50:38

Time of day, day of year, wind, uh, dust, those things.

Larry Burns: 00:50:42

But that 95 is going to become 96, it's going to become 97, 98, and at some point,

Larry Burns: 00:50:49

rather than calling it advanced driver assistance system, where the assumption

Larry Burns: 00:50:53

is the technology is assisting the driver, we're going to flip that around.

Larry Burns: 00:50:59

And a occupant in the vehicle is going to be assisting the technology.

Larry Burns: 00:51:05

It's a big switch, but it's real important to understand what I just said.

Larry Burns: 00:51:09

Now the assumption is most of the driving is being done with the

Larry Burns: 00:51:12

technology, and occasionally I need a human to help me make a decision.

Larry Burns: 00:51:17

So let's say, you know like on your mapping system in your car, they

Larry Burns: 00:51:20

say, Hey Brandon, in a quarter of a mile you're going to turn right.

Larry Burns: 00:51:24

And then they say in a thousand feet you're going to turn right, in a

Larry Burns: 00:51:27

hundred feet you're going to turn right.

Larry Burns: 00:51:29

In the future, it might be, you're sitting there and you're engaging with your kids

Larry Burns: 00:51:33

and having fun, maybe you're playing a game in the car or something like that,

Larry Burns: 00:51:36

and then suddenly, Hey, Brandon, in a quarter of a mile, I'm going to need

Larry Burns: 00:51:40

to have you help me make a decision.

Larry Burns: 00:51:42

And that's the technology asking you that.

Larry Burns: 00:51:44

And they, it then says, up the road, we're going to make a left turn.

Larry Burns: 00:51:49

I've done this many, many times as my technology can handle it, but today

Larry Burns: 00:51:54

The weather's a little different, the traffic's a little different.

Larry Burns: 00:51:56

Would you just look out the window, right and left, and when I say I

Larry Burns: 00:52:00

think I'm ready to make my left turn, you say yes, you're right.

Larry Burns: 00:52:04

Boy, that'd be a big help to me.

Larry Burns: 00:52:06

It's that kind of thing, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:52:08

So now it's, the human is assisting the technology.

Larry Burns: 00:52:13

And that's going to completely change the experience of everybody in the car.

Larry Burns: 00:52:19

And when we start to approach that capability, and you're saying,

Larry Burns: 00:52:23

as a driver, you have to sit with your eyes on your road, your hands

Larry Burns: 00:52:26

over your wheel, your feet over the pedals, you're not going to do that.

Larry Burns: 00:52:31

Driving is the distraction at that point in time.

Larry Burns: 00:52:34

And you're going to let your mind wander.

Larry Burns: 00:52:36

That's just a reality.

Larry Burns: 00:52:37

So, oh, this is going to get exciting.

Larry Burns: 00:52:39

And then you say, the camp is kind of setting.

Larry Burns: 00:52:42

So some people would say, how wasteful is it that Larry would dispatch his

Larry Burns: 00:52:46

robotic vehicle To run up to the wine store to get the wine store to

Larry Burns: 00:52:51

put some wine in the car to bring it back home all those empty miles.

Larry Burns: 00:52:56

Well, if I had driven my car to the wine store and drove it back, they

Larry Burns: 00:53:00

would not count that as an empty mile.

Larry Burns: 00:53:01

They'd count that as a loaded mile, but it's the same miles

Larry Burns: 00:53:05

and it didn't use my time.

Larry Burns: 00:53:07

So some of this is rooted in these metrics that we talk about.

Larry Burns: 00:53:11

And I know when I first started writing about autonomous vehicles, they were

Larry Burns: 00:53:14

uber like systems without drivers.

Larry Burns: 00:53:16

Oh my god, people would jump at my analysis and say, we can't have

Larry Burns: 00:53:20

all those empty miles out there.

Larry Burns: 00:53:23

Well, there's a lot of empty miles.

Larry Burns: 00:53:25

Think of all the empty seat miles when I drive my 8 passenger

Larry Burns: 00:53:28

Traverse with just myself in it.

Larry Burns: 00:53:31

I'm taking seven empty seats with me all the time.

Larry Burns: 00:53:34

So the point we're making here, Brandon, in our discussion, there is enormous

Larry Burns: 00:53:39

opportunity to make the world better.

Larry Burns: 00:53:41

There's enormous opportunity for everybody to be able to flourish.

Larry Burns: 00:53:45

I'm talking about Republicans and Democrats, red states, blue

Larry Burns: 00:53:49

states, rural areas, college educated, high school educated.

Larry Burns: 00:53:54

We've got to get our mind around how do we make things better

Larry Burns: 00:53:57

for everybody simultaneously.

Larry Burns: 00:54:00

I think this accessibility lens And the way that technology is going to shape

Larry Burns: 00:54:06

how we can access things in the future in a much more energy efficient, much

Larry Burns: 00:54:11

safer, much more materials efficient world with much greater equality of access.

Larry Burns: 00:54:17

All of that is there for the having by your generation, because my

Larry Burns: 00:54:22

generation dropped the ball big time.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:27

And you just touched on, or you've touched on this a couple

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:29

times, but this idea of like the, the common critiques of the empty miles or the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:33

incremental drop off from, from Amazon.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:35

It sounds like that's not necessarily something that's,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:38

that's super concerning to you.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:39

And then part of the, part of the things I've struggled with when that

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:42

idea gets brought up, and we talk about robo taxi fleets and, you know, you,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:46

you picture this future of a bunch of, Empty Ubers driving around waiting for

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:49

something like these, all the actors in the system are going to be optimized

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:54

to minimize those empty miles and to be as efficient and effective as possible.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:58

Right?

Brandon Bartneck: 00:54:59

So

Larry Burns: 00:54:59

why, why, if you were a fleet owner, if you were a fleet owner

Larry Burns: 00:55:05

and your cost structure was depreciation and maintenance and insurance and energy.

Larry Burns: 00:55:12

Why would you have your car driving around empty, hovering, you, you would

Larry Burns: 00:55:16

have it go set, set and stage somewhere.

Larry Burns: 00:55:19

And we, we, you know, it's hard to pin down exactly how many parking

Larry Burns: 00:55:22

places are in the United States.

Larry Burns: 00:55:25

But I think a good rule of thumb is on the order of six to eight parking spaces

Larry Burns: 00:55:29

exist for every car in the United States.

Larry Burns: 00:55:31

So we've got a huge amount of land today.

Larry Burns: 00:55:34

Some of that can still be used for these vehicles to stage themselves and not

Larry Burns: 00:55:39

ride around, but they can go somewhere and just stage in an orderly way.

Larry Burns: 00:55:45

But you know, there's a lot of people who would just soon not have the futures

Larry Burns: 00:55:48

we're talking about here today happen.

Larry Burns: 00:55:50

So they're gonna find these dramatic alternative stories.

Larry Burns: 00:55:55

Like, oh my gosh, a cruise vehicle caused some traffic to back up in San Francisco.

Larry Burns: 00:56:01

Well, you know what?

Larry Burns: 00:56:02

There's a lot of everyday drivers who cause traffic to

Larry Burns: 00:56:05

back up in San Francisco, too.

Larry Burns: 00:56:07

We just don't report on it.

Larry Burns: 00:56:08

We report on the cruise vehicle or the Waymo vehicle that does that.

Larry Burns: 00:56:13

But I think you should be optimistic.

Larry Burns: 00:56:14

Your listeners should be optimistic that, personally, I don't think

Larry Burns: 00:56:19

anything needs to be invented.

Larry Burns: 00:56:23

Honestly, invented to make this world that I see play out, and this world that

Larry Burns: 00:56:28

I see play out, I think, has a whole lot of positives associated with it.

Larry Burns: 00:56:34

But if there's groups of people who think, well, we've got that job done

Larry Burns: 00:56:39

by making every car 1, 500 to 3, 000 pounds heavier, uh, with lithium

Larry Burns: 00:56:45

ion batteries, and we've solved the climate change issue in transportation.

Larry Burns: 00:56:51

Nope, that's not the answer.

Larry Burns: 00:56:53

I'm all in favor of electric drive, all in favor of zero emission vehicles, all

Larry Burns: 00:56:57

in favor of alternatives to fossil fuels.

Larry Burns: 00:57:00

But from a transportation system standpoint, adding all that mass to

Larry Burns: 00:57:05

the system makes no sense to me at all.

Larry Burns: 00:57:08

By the way, we need to benchmark China on that.

Larry Burns: 00:57:09

That's not what's happening in China, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 00:57:12

They're playing, they're getting some really, really compelling vehicles with

Larry Burns: 00:57:16

30 kilowatt hour batteries in them.

Larry Burns: 00:57:19

You know, one sixth to one third is big.

Larry Burns: 00:57:24

And, um, they're playing it differently.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:27

Well, and I'll take a stab at this, but if you

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:29

had to kind of, as we close here, summarize the key points that you're

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:33

hoping someone takes away from this.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:35

So, what I'm hearing is, one, the foundational thing is understanding

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:39

what we're trying to optimize for is not number of trips or speed of trips

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:43

or anything involving necessarily the traditional metrics, but it's

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:47

Accessibility, it's flexibility, it's the ability for people to access the

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:51

things that will enrich their lives, whether it's through moving themselves

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:55

or moving goods to, to, to them.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:57:57

And two of the biggest things that we need to be driving to get out of this system is

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:03

mass of the vehicles and the speed of the vehicles moving, with the end objective

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:06

being, those are huge factors for safety as well as sustainability, but really,

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:12

Safety is critical in both of those areas.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:15

How close is that to a kind of a neat summary and what would you add or change?

Larry Burns: 00:58:19

That was per that was perfect.

Larry Burns: 00:58:20

If you were in my class, I'd give you a pretty good grade on that summary.

Larry Burns: 00:58:24

I'd say you paid attention really well, and I appreciate that, but you nailed it.

Larry Burns: 00:58:30

That's exactly what's going on.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:31

Great, yeah, and anything else you're hoping someone

Brandon Bartneck: 00:58:34

takes away from the conversation here?

Larry Burns: 00:58:37

Just don't give up.

Larry Burns: 00:58:38

I think there's really some 25 years old again, knowing what I know, I'd

Larry Burns: 00:58:46

be extremely excited about the career opportunities, the new business growth

Larry Burns: 00:58:51

opportunities, and The, uh, ways to make life better for a lot more people, but

Larry Burns: 00:58:57

we, we have to get out of this trap of, of, um, right and wrong and, you know,

Larry Burns: 00:59:04

all these different extreme political views that people are taking on, because

Larry Burns: 00:59:08

that, that's causing frictional losses in the system when everybody can be

Larry Burns: 00:59:12

flourishing, really, really can't.

Larry Burns: 00:59:15

I mean, you hear this debate about the, you The East Coast elites in the city, the

Larry Burns: 00:59:20

East Coast urban elites versus the rural Midwest people or the rural South people.

Larry Burns: 00:59:26

We don't need that.

Larry Burns: 00:59:28

We have a chance with these technologies, in my opinion, for everybody to benefit.

Larry Burns: 00:59:33

No matter where they live, no matter what they want to do in their life.

Larry Burns: 00:59:36

And when everyone jumps quickly to judge something through those kind of

Larry Burns: 00:59:41

political lenses, that's not, that's not serving us well, Brandon, so.

Larry Burns: 00:59:46

I'm hoping, uh, people will open their minds up and understand some of these

Larry Burns: 00:59:50

concepts more broadly and, and, and see this path forward, uh, is very compelling.

Larry Burns: 00:59:56

All

Brandon Bartneck: 00:59:56

right.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:59:56

Yeah.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:59:57

And I think that's a, that's a great place to leave it.

Brandon Bartneck: 00:59:58

Well, Larry, once again, really appreciate it.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:00

This has been a lot, a lot of fun, great getting your thoughts, definitely learning

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:03

and has, has my mind, uh, thinking about many different things and I hope to

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:07

hope the same for anyone listening here.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:08

So yeah, really appreciate it.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:09

Thank you.

Larry Burns: 01:00:12

Thank you.

Larry Burns: 01:00:12

Stay in touch, please, Brandon.

Larry Burns: 01:00:14

Thank you.

Larry Burns: 01:00:14

Bye.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:17

Well, there you have it.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:18

Hope you enjoyed that conversation with Larry Burns.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:20

So, what stands out?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:22

First, the, starting with why, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:26

Why are we doing this?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:27

What are we trying to achieve?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:28

And the key thing is we're not moving vehicles for the sake of moving vehicles.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:33

We're not even moving people or goods for the sake of moving people and goods.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:36

What we're doing is enriching lives through mobility.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:41

And we're providing access and flexibility, we're providing access

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:44

to The services and the places and the things that people want and so

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:49

when we reframe and we think about that ecosystem, we also realize that

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:54

physical vehicles and infrastructure is not the only piece of the puzzle here.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:00:59

All of this whole technology ecosystem plays together, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:02

We talked at the beginning about a few things of like, yeah,

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:06

trips can be replaced, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:08

So like this podcast interview, this was recorded virtually.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:11

I do these from almost always virtually virtual In the past, I would have needed

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:15

to gone outside, somehow transported myself to a location where Larry was, have

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:23

this discussion, move back, like, there is no effort that can be done to speed up

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:28

that physical travel that would be faster or more effective or even, I think, safer,

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:34

more sustainable than the way we did this.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:37

And there's downsides to that, I mean, especially in this situation,

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:39

right, there's benefits of being in person and that connection and The

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:43

conversation you can have in it, all of that, but there's also tremendous

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:48

benefit in leveraging things outside of the physical transportation realm as

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:56

part of this overall solution of what we're trying to solve for, which is

Brandon Bartneck: 01:01:59

accessibility is, as Larry mentioned.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:01

So that reframing is critical.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:04

And then when you think about the key levers that we have to

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:07

pull and the key challenges in the system, which we talk about.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:11

Mass and how mass begets mass.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:13

And we continue to add mass as well as speed to the system.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:17

That's not sustainable.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:19

It's not safe.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:20

There's a bunch of, uh, negative externalities that come with that.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:23

So how do we solve this?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:25

And we talk about the importance of public policy, as well as the importance

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:29

of all of us who are in this space doing work, realizing the objectives and our

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:33

role in trying to find solutions that.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:39

Ideally provide positive externalities, or at least aren't

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:41

making things worse for others.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:43

And so, a lot of challenges we talk about here.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:46

One of the things I always appreciate about Larry is the optimism

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:49

that also comes along with this.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:52

Of, yes, there's challenges, there's, you know, kind of this death spiral

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:57

of sorts in the mass world, right?

Brandon Bartneck: 01:02:59

Of mass begets mass, we get heavier and heavier and faster cars, and

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:03

electrification makes us worse.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:04

And there's a lot of challenges here.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:07

Well, we also should be optimistic because we continue to innovate

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:10

and we continue to find solutions.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:12

There's a lot of solutions out there.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:13

There's a lot of great work that has been done, is being done,

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:15

and will continue to be done.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:17

And there are solutions out there.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:18

So let's keep working towards them.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:19

So that's, that's really what stands out to me.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:21

It's this different framing of.

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:24

The challenge that we're facing, some thoughts about prioritizing

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:28

the challenges and solutions, and also just the overarching optimism

Brandon Bartneck: 01:03:33

that comes with it of, yeah, we'll solve this and we'll figure it out.

Tris Hussey: 01:03:39

Hi.

Tris Hussey: 01:03:40

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey: 01:03:43

Thank you for listening to this special episode of Transit Unplugged with our feed

Tris Hussey: 01:03:48

drop guests, Brandon Bartneck and Larry Burns from the Future of Mobility Podcast,

Tris Hussey: 01:03:55

look for the links to subscribe to the Future of Mobility in the show notes.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:00

Coming up next week, we head to Kansas City, Missouri.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:03

Where we talk with Frank, wait, the third President and CEO of the Kansas

Tris Hussey: 01:04:07

City Area, Transportation Authority, or KCATA on everything of this

Tris Hussey: 01:04:12

really unique agency that straddles two states and several counties.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:17

To get the job done.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:19

Now, if you want to make sure you are always up to date with whatever

Tris Hussey: 01:04:22

we're doing on Transit Unplugged.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:24

Make sure to follow us on social media and get our newsletter.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:27

All the information can be found@transitunplugged.com.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:32

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:34

At Modaxo we're passionate about moving the world's people.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:38

And at Transit Unplugged, we're passionate about telling those stories.

Tris Hussey: 01:04:42

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.