April 10, 2024
Season:    7

Public Transit Trumps Politics in Oklahoma City with Mayor David Holt

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Usually on Transit Unplugged we bring you the voices and stories of transit leaders from around the world, but this week we have something a little different. Join Paul as he sits down with Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt to talk about transit, politics, and changing how people view public transit in his city.

As David describes it, like many cities West of the Mississippi, Oklahoma City was planned, developed, and built for cars. Transit was seen as transportation of last resort. What this translated into was a sporadic and sparse transit system where people could wait a hour for the next bus after walking miles to get to a stop that’s just a stick in the mud.

David and his predecessor thought it was time to change that and create a modern, robust transit system in Oklahoma’s capital city. Now the city is building out its bus route network, putting in bus rapid transit (BRT), and looking at light rail to connect two key suburbs. David’s plan hinges on doing big things in small steps over the course of a few years. Instead of proposing a massive light rail network, he’s proposing this smaller, focused project to prove it out and build support for the project over the long-term.

We think you’ll enjoy this refreshing discussion from a pro-transit politician who is building support regardless of your politics.

Coming up next week on the show we have Justin Stuehrenberg, General Manager of the Madison Metro Transit System talking about his big projects happening in his city.

If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo and these fine folks:

  • Paul Comfort, host and producer
  • Julie Gates, executive producer
  • Tris Hussey, editor and writer
  • Tatyana Mechkarova, social media

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00:00 Welcome to Transit Unplugged

00:05 Introducing Mayor David Holt and Oklahoma City’s Transit Vision

02:04 The Geography and Demographics of Oklahoma City

05:33 Embark: Oklahoma City’s Public Transit System

07:42 The Evolution of Public Transit in Oklahoma City

12:37 Funding Transit: The Role of MAPS Initiatives

16:32 The Future of Transit: Regional Transit Authority and Light Rail Plans

22:32 Political Perspectives on Transit and Closing Thoughts

27:24 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged

Transcript
Paul Comfort:

This is Transit Unplugged.

Paul Comfort:

I'm Paul Comfort, and today we take a look into the political side of public

Paul Comfort:

transportation with Mayor David Holt, who is the mayor of Oklahoma City,

Paul Comfort:

Oklahoma, the capital city of the State of Oklahoma here in the United States.

Paul Comfort:

Mayor Holt is known as a pro transit mayor, and he talks about the 20 year

Paul Comfort:

plan that he is helping to implement as a kind of the second mayor in a row to be

Paul Comfort:

focused on this to implement those plans.

Paul Comfort:

They have a bus service, paratransit, a streetcar that was started under the

Paul Comfort:

last term, and now a bus rapid transit system, which just opened up recently, and

Paul Comfort:

they're moving toward additional lines.

Paul Comfort:

And they've just voted to move into a regional transportation authority

Paul Comfort:

that will eventually fund and build and operate a light rail line.

Paul Comfort:

He's a very pragmatic politician in a nonpartisan city, although

Paul Comfort:

he is a registered Republican.

Paul Comfort:

And we talk about all that on this episode, and show you about what it's like

Paul Comfort:

from a mayor's perspective to implement and promote public transportation and

Paul Comfort:

how it integrates into the overall city services and the overall city plan,

Paul Comfort:

to improve the city infrastructure.

Paul Comfort:

I think you'll find it a fascinating conversation with

Paul Comfort:

Mayor David Holt of Oklahoma City.

Paul Comfort:

Now let's join the conversation.

Paul Comfort:

David Holt, mayor of Oklahoma City.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you so much for being our guest today on Transit Unplugged.

David Holt:

Well, thank you.

David Holt:

Thanks for having me, Paul.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, excited.

Paul Comfort:

I had a mutual friend who told me about you and the great work

Paul Comfort:

you're doing there in Oklahoma when it comes to public transit.

Paul Comfort:

And also, your upcoming role very excited for you.

Paul Comfort:

You're the new, chair of the, or the president, I guess, of the U.

Paul Comfort:

S.

Paul Comfort:

Conference of Mayors next year.

Paul Comfort:

Very exciting, Mayor.

David Holt:

Yes, well, thank you.

David Holt:

It's my honor to be mayor, and I've always been a fan of the U.

David Holt:

S.

David Holt:

Conference of Mayors.

David Holt:

Great platform for urban issues, and yeah, I'll begin serving as president

David Holt:

of that organization in June of 25.

Paul Comfort:

It's exciting.

Paul Comfort:

Well, let's talk about a few things today.

Paul Comfort:

I want to dive into your city, the public transit system, and all

Paul Comfort:

the great plans you have for it.

Paul Comfort:

So, tell us some about Oklahoma City itself.

David Holt:

Yeah, well, for your, for your listeners who, understandably may

David Holt:

not be experts on Oklahoma City, and I know you've got listeners all around the

David Holt:

world, to give a little bit of context, both maybe from a population and geography

David Holt:

standpoint, and geography matters a lot in public transit conversations.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

And I'll expand on that in a moment.

David Holt:

But, We're the 20th largest city by population.

David Holt:

I mean, there's more people and that sometimes surprises people, but I

David Holt:

mean, there's more people living in the city limits of Oklahoma City

David Holt:

than live in the city limits of Atlanta and Miami and Washington, D.

David Holt:

C.

David Holt:

and Nashville and so on and so on.

David Holt:

We have 700, 000 residents in the city limits.

David Holt:

Now, if you talk about, like, the market , or the metropolitan statistical

David Holt:

area, or the MSA, as we call it here in the United States we fall a

David Holt:

little bit farther down the rankings.

David Holt:

Obviously, that's going to be, you know, that's going to include

David Holt:

our suburbs and that's about 1.

David Holt:

5Million people in total.

David Holt:

And there we rank about 40nd but look, when you're mayor, you're

David Holt:

only the mayor of the city.

David Holt:

You're not the mayor of the suburbs.

David Holt:

So, you know, I always think, That it is certainly consequential in

David Holt:

my life that when I go to a U.

David Holt:

S.

David Holt:

conference of mayors meeting, there's only 19 people who have

David Holt:

more constituents than I do.

David Holt:

Now, here's though, probably the factor that in many ways is more

David Holt:

relevant to this conversation.

David Holt:

And let me shift to giving people a sense of our geography.

David Holt:

So great.

David Holt:

And in that sense, we are very, very unique.

David Holt:

We are 1 of really, I think only 3 American cities.

David Holt:

That have high population and are spread out over more than 600 square

David Holt:

miles and the other 2 that come to mind are Houston and Jacksonville.

David Holt:

We're 620 square miles and to give that, like.

David Holt:

I could make comparisons all day, but 1 easy 1 is like, you know, Boston,

David Holt:

I think is like, 70 square miles.

David Holt:

I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of American cities, especially more on

David Holt:

the Eastern half of the United States.

David Holt:

That are just a fraction of our size.

David Holt:

We, like many states in the Southwest, you know, think about, like, Phoenix

David Holt:

and Dallas and Los Angeles, you know, the farther West you went, the

David Holt:

closer you were to your, you know, to the invention of the automobile.

David Holt:

Right?

David Holt:

And so most of these cities.

David Holt:

West of the Mississippi in the United States.

David Holt:

Were built in a different era, right?

David Holt:

They were built and populated around the automobile and that's just

David Holt:

obviously cities in the northeast of the United States were built

David Holt:

around horse and buggy, you know, and so it's just a different style.

David Holt:

Obviously that has major consequences for your ability to produce public

David Holt:

transit, because it's a lot more expensive in a 620 square mile city

David Holt:

to build and operate public transit than it is in a 70 square mile city.

David Holt:

And so that certainly has had consequences to our public transit

David Holt:

as it has for for many westerly American cities through the years.

David Holt:

So, in keeping with probably a lot of cities like ours, west of the

David Holt:

Mississippi, we really had treated public transit like an afterthought for

David Holt:

a very long time because of our size.

David Holt:

We were really built around the automobile and our emphasis in our investments

David Holt:

as a city had been on that on streets.

David Holt:

And on automobile traffic really for our entire history until very

David Holt:

recently, but I'll probably stop there.

David Holt:

But I just think that that you're probably the most important

David Holt:

takeaway for your visitor.

David Holt:

Your listeners was to understand, you know, like, how many people

David Holt:

are here and how big are we?

David Holt:

Because those are 2 key factors for a public transit conversation.

Paul Comfort:

Well, good.

Paul Comfort:

Well, let's flip over then to your public transit.

Paul Comfort:

Your system's called Embark.

Paul Comfort:

part of a, a larger, it's a city department, right?

Paul Comfort:

Tell us about the department it's in and some of the

Paul Comfort:

services you all operate there.

David Holt:

Right.

David Holt:

Our public transit, really for our whole region to this point, is has been really

David Holt:

a city department of the city of Oklahoma City, and that has stood in contrast,

David Holt:

maybe to transit systems in more in more Northeastern cities where this transit

David Holt:

system is more a factor in people's daily lives and is often maybe its own

David Holt:

government sort of outside of the city government in many cases, because it

David Holt:

needs to be sort of a collection of city governments, maybe even a collection of

David Holt:

different states in some cases, right?

David Holt:

But here in Oklahoma City, because of our size, most of our transit just

David Holt:

needs to occur in our city limits . And what transit has historically occurred

David Holt:

outside of our city limits has still been operated by us, but sort of, maybe under

David Holt:

a contract with another city or something.

David Holt:

And so, yes, our authority is known as COTPA the Central Oklahoma

David Holt:

Transportation and Parking Authority.

David Holt:

It also runs the parking garages in downtown Oklahoma City.

David Holt:

And then the sort of the brand name that is on the buses is Embark, and that's

David Holt:

sort of the, that's sort of the way that it's, it's more publicly known.

David Holt:

We have for half a century and a lot has changed in the last 10 years.

David Holt:

And I'll kind of get to that.

David Holt:

But, but for half a century, you know, we were really just a bus system and

David Holt:

quite frankly, a bus system that was had really slow, you know, pick up times.

David Holt:

I mean, you're going to wait 30, 45 minutes an hour.

David Holt:

Between pickups, really only covered a small portion of the populated

David Holt:

part of our city and an even smaller portion of the entire city.

David Holt:

You know, if you lived outside of kind of the core, you may, you may likely

David Holt:

have no service at all, or you, you had to walk a couple of miles or something.

David Holt:

If you didn't have another method of getting to the bus stop.

David Holt:

For all of these reasons, you know, the, the service historically was really

David Holt:

for people who had no other option.

David Holt:

It was really a service of last resort.

David Holt:

It was not something.

David Holt:

that would attract a lot of choice riders in the vernacular of transit, right?

David Holt:

So, that's the state of affairs from really the end of private streetcars

David Holt:

till about 10 or 15 years ago, right?

David Holt:

About a half century of history, where, where the city was.

David Holt:

Ultra focus on automobile traffic and investing in ways to make

David Holt:

automobile traffic flow freely.

David Holt:

And, almost, you know, transit was just considered such an afterthought

David Holt:

from a funding perspective, from a vision perspective.

David Holt:

It wasn't something that city leaders even really talked about . It just, it was

David Holt:

kind of there as sort of a nod towards.

David Holt:

Well, I guess we have to have something for people who can't afford cars, but it

David Holt:

will be in many ways, the bare minimum.

David Holt:

Well, about 15, 20 years ago, I would say that mentality started to shift.

David Holt:

You know, I think.

David Holt:

You had rising generations that were just more interested in public

David Holt:

transit and thought of thought of it as something they might like to do,

David Holt:

even though they still own a car.

David Holt:

Would like to have some options.

David Holt:

and I think city leaders also recognized that, that we had a problem.

David Holt:

It was a good problem, but we were growing, you know, from

David Holt:

a population perspective.

David Holt:

we had separately from from the transit conversation.

David Holt:

Had started investing in ourselves in 1993 with the passage of an initiative known as

David Holt:

maps metropolitan area projects and maps now is on its 4th iteration since 1993.

David Holt:

But each step along the way, we've made some pretty big

David Holt:

investments in our quality of life.

David Holt:

It's a well known brand name here in Oklahoma City, and it's

David Holt:

been very successful and it, it led to getting an NBA team.

David Holt:

It's led to all of this.

David Holt:

Improvement in in, Oklahoma City's quality of life, which has led to a

David Holt:

dramatic improvement in desirability, which is led not surprisingly

David Holt:

to the ultimate validation for a city, which is population growth.

David Holt:

And so, you know, when I came into the world, we were

David Holt:

maybe the 37th largest city.

David Holt:

Now we're the 20th largest city.

David Holt:

you know, to make that kind of movement is actually relatively rare in American life.

David Holt:

You know, cities generally have kind of established themselves,

David Holt:

but we're 1 of those cities.

David Holt:

It's been on the rise this last quarter century.

David Holt:

Well, all of this means, of course, that, you know, it's a little more traffic.

David Holt:

It's a little more crowded and you can start to anticipate a world where.

David Holt:

You're going to need other options and the thing about transit is I'm

David Holt:

sure your listeners know better than anybody is it's a really

David Holt:

expensive and complicated endeavor.

David Holt:

To build a transit system and you can't just wake up on the morning

David Holt:

that you've got gridlock and decide I would like to have a fully, you

David Holt:

know, fully formed light rail system.

David Holt:

I mean, you're, if you do that, you are a quarter century away from that moment.

David Holt:

So, you better get started a little bit before you're in a crisis.

David Holt:

And, and so my predecessor, Mayor Cornett, presided over, I think that

David Holt:

first shift in, in thought about this and the first movement towards, some real

David Holt:

planning and some regional partnerships.

David Holt:

So.

David Holt:

about gosh, it's almost 20 years ago now.

David Holt:

Our city adopted what they called the fixed guideway study, which, of course,

David Holt:

transit is really good at putting.

David Holt:

you know, things into technical terms that no lay people can understand, you

David Holt:

know, I try to so I try to try to do my best to translate it, you know, but it

David Holt:

was so a fixed guideway study in our case.

David Holt:

It's really just a plan for what transit might look like.

David Holt:

in the decades ahead, and it had four components.

David Holt:

1 was simply better bus service, you know, just like more lines, more frequency.

David Holt:

The 2nd was bus, rapid transit, which at the time of this adoption, 20 years ago,

David Holt:

we didn't have any bus, rapid transit.

David Holt:

I think of bus rapid transit as sort of a compromise.

David Holt:

It's a cheaper way to provide the same kind of service that you get in a rail

David Holt:

based transit, you know, but it's.

David Holt:

It's highly frequent and it kind of has a different feel, you know, it feels like

David Holt:

something you'd want to ride, not that you would have to ride, you know, the 3rd

David Holt:

element of our fixed guideway study was a downtown streetcar to circulate people

David Holt:

as we bring them downtown without a car.

David Holt:

And then the 4th element was another way that would another method

David Holt:

that would bring them downtown.

David Holt:

In addition to bus, rapid transit and buses, and that

David Holt:

would be some sort of light rail.

David Holt:

but obviously limited, you know, trying to find, like, the high population corridors

David Holt:

where it would really make sense.

David Holt:

And we have 2 major suburbs 1 to the North and 1 to the South, Edmond and Norman.

David Holt:

And the thought has always been, if we could just have a straight line

David Holt:

from Edmond to Norman right through downtown Oklahoma City with a light rail

David Holt:

line, that would be highly utilized.

David Holt:

That would be highly useful.

David Holt:

So those 4 elements is what are what we developed 20 years ago.

David Holt:

And we've really just been working that plan ever since.

David Holt:

I mean, it's been quite methodical and we haven't really deviated

David Holt:

from it and it takes a lot of time.

David Holt:

as you can imagine, but every time we've sort of had a funding method

David Holt:

come along that could give us.

David Holt:

An opportunity to check another box on that plan.

David Holt:

We've utilized it.

David Holt:

So in 2009, we had maps 3.

David Holt:

so I mentioned the maps series of initiatives.

David Holt:

Well, they're kind of like a movie series.

David Holt:

Now we sort of number them like sequels.

David Holt:

And so maps 3, it was kind of perfect to put in a downtown streetcar.

David Holt:

Now, the downtown streetcar, in my view, is really part of a comprehensive system,

David Holt:

and it'll make the most sense when all these other elements are in place.

David Holt:

And you've got locals coming to downtown who don't have a car and therefore

David Holt:

need a little bit of a circulator.

David Holt:

But it fit, financially, with sort of the room we had in MAPS 3.

David Holt:

so we went ahead and did it and it opened in 2018.

David Holt:

then somewhere around that time period, we secured a grant.

David Holt:

For, for bus rap for our first bus rapid transit line.

David Holt:

This was a federal grant paired with some local match.

David Holt:

And that took a few years to implement and so we just opened that a few months

David Holt:

ago and it goes to the Northwest and in our, of our 4 quadrants, it's going, it's

David Holt:

kind of serving 1 of those quadrants.

David Holt:

and then we've just methodically improved bus service as opportunities

David Holt:

to presented themselves.

David Holt:

We haven't had, like, a new funding stream for it, but.

David Holt:

I mean, we've done things that probably a lot of other communities

David Holt:

would have taken for granted, but we were just so far behind on.

David Holt:

I mean, we didn't have Sunday bus service when I took office.

David Holt:

We've added Sunday bus service.

David Holt:

We, we didn't serve on holidays.

David Holt:

We've added holiday bus service.

David Holt:

I mean, just little stuff like that.

David Holt:

And we've tried to do better.

David Holt:

MAPS 4 then came along and presented yet another option for funding.

Paul Comfort:

Let me ask you a question, Mayor, on the MAPS.

Paul Comfort:

Are these referendums that you're putting out to the voters?

Paul Comfort:

And how are they funded?

David Holt:

Yes, absolutely.

David Holt:

So these are temporary one cent sales taxes, and all taxes in Oklahoma

David Holt:

have to be approved by the voters.

David Holt:

We kind of as a community, these are big deals in Oklahoma City, we

David Holt:

kind of come together, we plan and talk for like a year or two, what's

David Holt:

going to be in the next maps, you know, and the 1st one had 9 projects.

David Holt:

MAPS 3 that had the streetcar in it, it had 8 projects and

David Holt:

the streetcar was 1 of them.

David Holt:

And then when I took office in 18, it was kind of time to talk about MAPS 4.

David Holt:

Okay.

David Holt:

And so, and so ultimately MAPS 4 was voted on by the voters in December

David Holt:

of 19, and it had 16 projects in it.

David Holt:

And 1, yeah, and it's 1.

David Holt:

1 billion dollars.

David Holt:

It's a 8 year, 1 cent sales tax.

David Holt:

And transit is basically one of the 16 projects, but within transit

David Holt:

are several sort of sub projects.

David Holt:

Yeah, let's walk through those.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

So, so this is, you know, like 100M dollars ish, and it's going to fund, first

David Holt:

of all, Bus shelters, you know, like we have, you know, hundreds of stops and

David Holt:

most of them are like a, a metal pole

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

Right.

David Holt:

And, and maybe a stick in the mud, I call it.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

stick in the mud.

David Holt:

Yeah, it's good.

David Holt:

And, this will basically provide a covered shelter.

David Holt:

For, every utilized stop, you know, as I found out through this process, I was

David Holt:

like, we have so many stops that, not so many, but I mean, you know, like,

David Holt:

and not a not insignificant number of stops that are highly underutilized.

David Holt:

But it's like, there's no real incentive to get rid of them.

David Holt:

There's not, they're not causing any problem.

David Holt:

You know, it's just the bus doesn't stop there.

David Holt:

If there's no one standing there, but someone may only stand

David Holt:

there once a week, you know.

David Holt:

but the ones that really have service that have, you know, some utilization at

David Holt:

a reasonable level, we will have a covered stop and we were able that's a perfect

David Holt:

kind of thing for maps to to address.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

this maps four will also provide.

David Holt:

The funding to do a bus, rapid transit line to the Northeast and to the

David Holt:

South . So we already have the line that just opened to the Northwest.

David Holt:

That was largely funded by a federal grant.

David Holt:

Now, we'll have lines after the implementation of maps for it to

David Holt:

the Northeast and to the South.

David Holt:

And that's the biggest chunk of the maps for transit funding.

David Holt:

and there's some other little dollars in there for some other things, but those

David Holt:

are kind of the, that's the meat of it.

David Holt:

And then finally, the other big development in the last few years

David Holt:

with transit is the creation of our 1st regional transit authority.

David Holt:

Which state law had provided for the legislature had given us that option,

David Holt:

but nobody had utilized it yet.

David Holt:

And we were the 1st, we still are the only.

David Holt:

and so where it stands now is that Oklahoma City, Edmond and Norman,

David Holt:

those 2 large suburbs, 1 to the North, 1 to the South have created

David Holt:

the regional transit authority.

David Holt:

It's, it's sort of a separate government from from the cities themselves.

David Holt:

each of us sends representatives to the board, and I appointed

David Holt:

our former governor, Brad Henry, who is now a resident of Oklahoma

David Holt:

City and was kind of looking for a way to serve something to do.

David Holt:

And, you know, his post gubernatorial.

David Holt:

Service, and I was really excited to that he would take on this, this

David Holt:

obligation, because I also knew he's a, he's, he's a successful politician and

David Holt:

there's going to be a tax vote here.

David Holt:

There's no, there's no funding this without a tax vote.

David Holt:

And let's get a guy in there.

David Holt:

As the initial leader who understands politics too, you know, so, so he, he has

David Holt:

been chairing that now for 3 or 4 years.

David Holt:

And we are looking to a tax vote sometime in the next couple of years.

David Holt:

The state law only allows sales tax, and it would be a sales tax voted

David Holt:

on and collected basically in the three cities, which is the first.

David Holt:

We've never had anything quite like

Paul Comfort:

that.

Paul Comfort:

And would that be to fund the light rail that you were talking about?

David Holt:

Yeah, so the thought is that the responsibility chiefly of the Regional

David Holt:

Transit Authority the RTA, as we locally call it, would be to fund that light

David Holt:

rail line from, from Edmond and Norman.

David Holt:

you know, I mean, they'll exist forever.

David Holt:

So hopefully they'll continue to figure out new ways, but that's like job.

David Holt:

Number 1.

David Holt:

I think that's the sexiest thing.

David Holt:

That's the thing people want to see.

David Holt:

That's what that's what they'll have in mind when they vote.

David Holt:

and so, that's their major.

David Holt:

Major responsibility and contribution, but if you go back to that plan, I

David Holt:

talked about that we adopted as a community 20 years ago, you know,

David Holt:

we've added bus, rapid transit.

David Holt:

We're adding more lines.

David Holt:

We built the downtown streetcar.

David Holt:

That's done.

David Holt:

we are now in a conversation about light rail, and we've got a

David Holt:

mechanism in place to pursue that.

David Holt:

take connecting us to our 2 largest suburbs.

David Holt:

and, you know, on bus service, we're still working.

David Holt:

I find that to be the most challenging probably, because

David Holt:

it's just so operationally heavy.

David Holt:

It's not necessarily it's easier sometimes to find 1 time capital dollars.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

it's harder to find that sort of perpetual operating.

David Holt:

money, and that's really what a better bus system requires, but, we're making more,

David Holt:

maybe more incremental improvements there.

David Holt:

But I would say this is a community that unabashedly and clearly is done a 180

David Holt:

on transit over the last 15 or 20 years.

David Holt:

And I credit my predecessor, Mick Cornett, and obviously I'm trying to

David Holt:

build upon that and I'm getting that.

David Holt:

Cut some of those ribbons that I think he laid the foundation for, and

David Holt:

obviously trying to plant some seeds of my own through maps four and the RTA.

David Holt:

And I like our direction and I think that our residents ultimately

David Holt:

will be very grateful for the forethought that's gone into this.

David Holt:

So that as traffic.

David Holt:

Escalates as crowding escalates, and they're looking for other options.

David Holt:

It's not too late.

David Holt:

You know, we've already got something at least.

David Holt:

in the pipeline, and so it's an interesting time in Oklahoma City.

David Holt:

It's.

David Holt:

You know, I look at the communities and I recognize we're decades behind, but,

David Holt:

you gotta, you know, you gotta start eating the elephant at some point.

David Holt:

And that's what we've done these last few years.

Paul Comfort:

That's awesome, Mayor.

Paul Comfort:

and so the transit couple questions, kind of like a lightning

Paul Comfort:

round of a few questions here.

Paul Comfort:

And then I want to get to your background for a few minutes before we wrap up.

Paul Comfort:

So how is the current operation dollars funded for your transit system?

Paul Comfort:

There is Jason Fairbrush.

Paul Comfort:

He's your director.

David Holt:

Yeah, so Jason Fairbrush is our transit director.

David Holt:

He's also an assistant city manager in our form of government, a

David Holt:

council manager for my government.

David Holt:

We have a city manager.

David Holt:

He's got a handful of assistant city managers.

David Holt:

And Jason was the transit director and was doing such a great job that it was a

David Holt:

natural that he be elevated to assistant city manager, but he was so invaluable at

David Holt:

transit and so appreciated in that role.

David Holt:

He, he held on to it.

David Holt:

Gotcha.

David Holt:

I'm very grateful.

David Holt:

I don't know how he does it.

David Holt:

I mean, I guess I shouldn't talk.

David Holt:

I'm the mayor and the dean of a law school.

David Holt:

You know, we all wear multiple hats, but, but, you know, thankful to him for

David Holt:

how hard he works and managing those 2 things, but to answer your question about

David Holt:

where their transit dollars come from.

David Holt:

you know, it's largely general fund money.

David Holt:

okay, that's, you know, that makes it challenging.

David Holt:

Of course.

David Holt:

Yeah, I talked about, you know, I think I'm pretty much itemized

David Holt:

where, like, the capital dollars have all come for these new projects,

David Holt:

but in terms of operating dollars.

David Holt:

No, there's no, like, dedicated transit tax or anything like that.

David Holt:

I mean, we talk about it from time to time, but it just.

David Holt:

You know, the political will hasn't been there.

David Holt:

The RTA vote would be, would have to be a permanent tax.

David Holt:

So, like, maybe kind of the, the upfront years would be more capital heavy and

David Holt:

then it would sort of transition more to, to usage of for operating dollars.

David Holt:

But, but no, at the city level, we're just getting it out of general fund.

David Holt:

And, of course, look, people in transit take it for granted that fares are

David Holt:

maybe 10 percent of your costs, right?

David Holt:

Like, that that's not a major, that's not covering the cost

David Holt:

of providing the service.

David Holt:

Right?

David Holt:

I always think it's a little unfortunate that that's not more widely understood

David Holt:

because when you do charge something, people assume, lay people assume

David Holt:

that you're charging for a reason that that is covering the cost.

David Holt:

we get that a lot with the streetcar, you know, they'll say, can you believe

David Holt:

they're subsidizing the streetcar that those fares don't even cover?

David Holt:

We shouldn't even do it, you know, and I'm like, you know,

David Holt:

the nowhere in the country.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

The New York subway doesn't pay for itself.

David Holt:

You know, like, everybody subsidizes transit.

David Holt:

I, I.

David Holt:

I get why some cities have looked at just eliminating fares completely,

David Holt:

because they're really kind of confusing more than anything, but sometimes

David Holt:

more trouble than they're worth.

David Holt:

But, but, yeah, we, we obviously, like, everybody get only a small

David Holt:

percentage of our funding from fares.

David Holt:

most of it's coming through the general fund, which is essentially

David Holt:

coming from sales taxes.

Paul Comfort:

Well, you are a, I just want to say it a rare breed in the sense

Paul Comfort:

that you are a pro transit Republican mayor of a city in, middle America.

Paul Comfort:

And it has evidently worked for the voters because you got more votes in

Paul Comfort:

your re election, I think, than anybody's gotten in a hundred years in this city.

Paul Comfort:

So, congratulations, man.

David Holt:

Well, thank you.

David Holt:

Thank you.

David Holt:

Well, look, it's like everything, everything in moderation, right?

David Holt:

I mean, if you're ideological about it and you're like, well, I'm a Republican.

David Holt:

I can't be for transit at all.

David Holt:

That's a stupid worldview, first of all, but also, it's really not that popular.

David Holt:

I mean, there's certainly a significant proportion of Republicans

David Holt:

who support some public transit.

David Holt:

I think, I think when cities get into trouble, and especially when they

David Holt:

push it so far that they fail some big referendum, they get maybe too ambitious.

David Holt:

And that ambition is pleasing to some part of the electorate.

David Holt:

They want to hear it.

David Holt:

I want to hear it.

David Holt:

You know, I want it, I want the number to, I want the number to start with

David Holt:

the B, you know, I want it to be, I want it to project out into 2060, you

David Holt:

know, I want like, I want that vision.

David Holt:

And the problem is not everybody's there.

David Holt:

So I think a good mayor is finding that middle ground, you know, maybe,

David Holt:

maybe scale back the vision a little bit, but not to zero, you know,

David Holt:

like, let's, let's find that middle ground where people can say, yeah.

David Holt:

So, so I think like, you look at the RTA, Okay.

David Holt:

I think the middle ground, kind of the, the moderate view is, let's just

David Holt:

talk about Edmond and Norman, you know, let's not talk about 16 different lines

David Holt:

to every corner of the of the region.

David Holt:

Yeah, that's where cities make a mistake.

David Holt:

They kind of, they get too excited, you know, and they get

David Holt:

kind of ginned up by people.

David Holt:

Who are naturally and understandably excited about this stuff, but are

David Holt:

really kind of outliers politically, you know, and let's talk about 1 line.

David Holt:

Let's start there.

David Holt:

I think that's what the population can stomach on a bipartisan basis.

David Holt:

Yeah.

David Holt:

and and then we'll, we'll be more successful.

David Holt:

So, yeah, I mean, I may be a registered Republican, although I want to be

David Holt:

clear in our form of government.

David Holt:

I'm nonpartisan and I take that.

David Holt:

you know, I take that very seriously.

David Holt:

but I had been a Republican in the state Senate and so I have that history.

David Holt:

but my view is that in my experience is that lots of Republicans are

David Holt:

not like completely lying in the sand against public transit.

David Holt:

They just want something that's kind of reasonable and maybe not too ambitious.

Paul Comfort:

That's interesting.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, I didn't mean to indicate that Republicans aren't for it, but you, you,

Paul Comfort:

you've really gotten a, a great vision and are willing to kind of put some of your

Paul Comfort:

political capital out there to, to raise funds and put money in your MAPS program.

Paul Comfort:

So kudos to you from our perspective in transit that you're making

Paul Comfort:

logical steps in the right direction.

Paul Comfort:

It seems like, you know, and you got a 20 year plan and you're carrying it out.

Paul Comfort:

That's awesome.

David Holt:

Yeah, no, I'm proud of our community.

David Holt:

I think, and I think again, we sort of found that middle ground and look,

David Holt:

I understand why you would say what you said a minute ago and don't pull

David Holt:

back because there are absolutely Republican Party platforms across this

David Holt:

country that are Anti transit, you know, like, absolutely shut it down.

David Holt:

Don't have it at all.

David Holt:

But that has always represented in reality a, a kind of an extremist view,

David Holt:

you know, and again, like, I operate on this issue and all other issues

David Holt:

by, by working with the 70 percent of normal people in the middle from

David Holt:

both political parties who just want to work together and get things done.

David Holt:

And I'm fully recognize that in modern American politics.

David Holt:

You know, close partisan primaries sort of elevate the extremes at both ends.

David Holt:

And in our case, we have a type of electoral system that is really

David Holt:

allowed me to kind of just find that sweet spot of normality in the

David Holt:

middle and, and find a path forward that is good enough for both sides.

David Holt:

Maybe not pleasing to the extremists who hate transit or the extremists

David Holt:

who think we should spend our entire budget on transit, but for the 70

David Holt:

percent in the middle who want to see moderate steps and moderate thoughtful

David Holt:

steps forward on public transit, we found that sweet spot for sure.

Paul Comfort:

Well, thank you for giving us, what we don't often get, which is kind

Paul Comfort:

of like, the political view of transit and how the long term process, the planning,

Paul Comfort:

and how to actually get things done.

Paul Comfort:

because if you're not, if you don't have a seat at the table and you're

Paul Comfort:

not bringing the majority of the people with you, it's probably not

Paul Comfort:

going to be there for the long term.

Paul Comfort:

So, this has been a very instructive interview, I think.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you so much, Mayor Holt.

David Holt:

Yeah, absolutely.

David Holt:

My pleasure.

David Holt:

Yeah, no, I mean, finding that, yeah, that look, that's my world is to sort of bring

David Holt:

the dreamers together with the realists and the realists are those who get

David Holt:

politics, especially in a community like ours, where anything of substance is going

David Holt:

to have to pass a vote of the people.

Paul Comfort:

Well, we wish you the very best in your upcoming role as

Paul Comfort:

the head of the US Conference of Mayors, a very important position.

Paul Comfort:

and congratulations on your recent stepping up as dean of the law school

Paul Comfort:

there in Oklahoma, a fellow attorney.

Paul Comfort:

Nice to meet you there too.

Paul Comfort:

Hopefully we can check back with you in a couple of years when you're head of the U.

Paul Comfort:

S.

Paul Comfort:

Conference of Mayors and, and talk to you more about what's happening

Paul Comfort:

nationally with cities across the country and your role there.

Paul Comfort:

Sounds great.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you, Paul.

Paul Comfort:

All right.

Paul Comfort:

Thanks.

Tris Hussey:

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey:

Thanks for listening to this week's episode, featuring mayor David

Tris Hussey:

Holt of Oklahoma city, Oklahoma.

Tris Hussey:

Now coming up next week on the show we have Justin Stuehrenberg General Manager

Tris Hussey:

of the Madison Metro Transit System, talking about all the big projects

Tris Hussey:

he's got going on there in Wisconsin.

Tris Hussey:

Hey, did you know transit unplugged.com is the place to

Tris Hussey:

get everything Transit Unplugged.

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So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.